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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Finally a Noteboom book (Read 31048 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #39 - 05/30/10 at 14:36:04
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Can't say I'm familiar with Sämisch-Koch, but with regard to Nf3 + minority attack in the mainline Exchange (which Van Wely-Short indeed was), a couple of games I would think of are Evans-Opsahl 1950 and Byrne-Eliskases 1952.
  
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MNb
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #38 - 05/30/10 at 11:23:54
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Dean wrote on 05/29/10 at 21:56:46:
OK, you may argue that it was because of the Nd7, but I still thinks it shows that chess often has much more possibilities than you think.


It doesn't show that simply because the position after 10...Nf8 has been known since 1928, from the game Sämisch-Koch, Berlin 1928. So I have been aware of this particular possibility since I bought Taimanov's book in 1981. I must admit though that 11...a5 was new to me, as Taimanov only gave a Ravinski line beginning with 11...Ng6.
Of course Taimanov also called the early Nf3 lines "irregular". If you still think say 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.cxd5 exd5 doesn't give Black easy play nobody will prevent you trying it in practice. Just do not expect others to agree with you.
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #37 - 05/30/10 at 01:34:15
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@Dean:

Well, it's confusing, but one can't just look at top grandmasters' games and conclude that they played advantageous moves theoretically in the line they reach.  Not that they are making mistakes; rather, they are reaching these lines through a transpositional labyrinth where, in the early stages, they are closing out several major options with each move.  Furthermore, they may have many motivations for their moves other than theoretical optimization, depending on the tournament situation.

The game you cite is one in which, with Nf3 already on the board, Short deliberately allowed a theoretically sound (for White) Exchange variation to be reached by transposition. This indeed occurred when he  played 4...Nbd7, blocking in the much-discussed bishop. If Short had wished to demonstrate how 3.Nf3 cripples White's minority attack, he could have done so by playing 4...Be7. Then in case of 5.cxd5 cxd5 6.Bg5, Black would have played 6...c6 (preventing Qb3 ideas) and then either 7...Bf5 or if 7.Qc2 g6 and 8...Bf5, as described by Markovich.  That is the refutation of the attempt to play the Nf3 exchange lines using an early Nf3. 

To convince you in another way about an early Nf3, look in any reference work such as ECO, MCO, NCO, etc.; you will see that in all the main QGD Exchange lines leading to the minority attack with advantage for White, Nf3 is actually played quite late.  That is because of the situation described above.  Once White knows he will be able to control the b1-h7 diagonal, there is time enough for Nf3.

Yet one cannot say that Short was refusing the best line. At move 4, White had not yet committed to exchange, and would undoubtedly have met 4...Be7 with something else, like 5.Bg5. Then Black could not have played the the Cambridge Springs, for example, an option which Short's move retained. 

In looking at the early moves of grandmaster games, one is often looking at a cubist painting of opening theory.  One sees multiple perspectives simultaneously, and the objects are distorted out of their most familiar shapes.

Perhaps this portion of the discussion should be moved to general chess.
« Last Edit: 05/30/10 at 11:52:26 by ReneDescartes »  
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Dean
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #36 - 05/29/10 at 21:56:46
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Regarding the early Nf3 in the exchange variation. It can be a good move in conjunction with a minority attack on the q-side.

Here is a very nice recent game where a 2700 player and QG classical black expert was made looking like a beginner. White played an early Nf3. 

OK, you may argue that it was because of the Nd7, but I still thinks it shows that chess often has much more possibilities than you think.

[Event "It"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee (Netherlands)"]
[Date "2010.1.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Van Wely Loek (NED)"]
[Black "Short Nigel D (ENG)"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D36"]
[Annotator ""]
[Source ""]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Nbd7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 c6 7.e3
Be7 8.Qc2 O-O 9.Bd3 Re8 10.h3 Nf8 11.Bf4 a5 12.O-O Ng6 13.Bh2
Bd6 14.Bxd6 Qxd6 15.Rfe1 Be6 16.a3 Re7 17.Rab1 Rae8 18.b4 axb4
19.axb4 Bd7 20.b5 Ne4 21.bxc6 bxc6 22.Rb6 Nxc3 23.Qxc3 Qf6 24.Bxg6
Qxg6 25.Kf1 f6 26.Ra1 Qh5 27.Ne1 Qf5 28.Kg1 Qg5 29.Kh2 Qf5 30.Nd3
Qe6 31.Kg1 Rc8 32.Rb7 Rf7 33.Raa7 Be8 34.Qb4 Rd8 35.Nc5 Qc8 36.Qb6
h5 37.Rc7 Rxc7 38.Rxc7 Qa8 39.Ra7 Qc8 40.Rb7 Bf7 41.Qa7 Rf8 42.Nd7
Re8 43.Nxf6+ gxf6 44.Rxf7 Qf5 45.Rg7+ Kh8 46.Qf7 1-0
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #35 - 05/29/10 at 13:35:06
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@kylemeister

My apologies.  I was looking at your reply to Dean,  where you quote him, and I was addressing my remarks to him, just as you were.  Unfortunately I wrote the name outside the quote (yours)  rather than the one inside. Tongue  

@Dean
Yes, chess is never quite so simple as in these schematic positional prescriptions; but if you had never had this laid out for you clearly, I thought I would take the time.  I agree matters are not so cut-and-dried in the Bf4 lines, where in similar situations White sometimes allows Black to play ...Bf4 without getting doubled or lost pawns, but your point about the Black dark-square Bishop saving a tempo is right, I think.

I don't believe White can show a theoretical advantage with 3.cxd5, but if he wants to take Black out of book and obtain an equal game in his own style that is not insanely unbalanced, it will certainly do that.  In that sense it is a playable reply anyway to the Triangle System(if rather dry after bishops are exchanged), particularly if you just like the Carlsbad pawn structure and/or notice that your opponent is foaming at the mouth.  We just saw the world champion defeat his challenger in games 2 and 12 from positions no better than equal at the point where the game went out of book, but where he secured the type of game in which his opponent was not comfortable. Although it might be heresy to say this in an opening forum, if you like it, play it,  follow up with Bf4, and let Black figure it out! Wink
« Last Edit: 05/30/10 at 01:15:54 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #34 - 05/29/10 at 12:37:44
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ReneDescartes wrote on 05/28/10 at 23:21:11:
@kylemeister

You must realize that a lot of White's strategic advantage in the QGD, even the Exchange, stems from the difficulty Black has in developing his queen's bishop satisfactorily. If Black can do that with impunity, he is equal.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.cxd5 exd5 Black can just play 4...Bf5 straight away, instantly solving this major strategic problem.  White's only attempt to exact a price for this is 4.Nc3 Bf5 5.Qb3, which hits d5 and b7. But 5...Nc6! defends tactically (the threat is ...Nxd5 double-hitting c2), e.g. 6.Qxb7?! Nxd4 or 6.Qxd5?! Qxd5 7.Nd5 O-O-O and ...Nxd4, or 6.Nxd5? Be4 and ...Nxd4.  So White has nothing better than 6.Nf3 Bb4 (Speelman-Short, Hastings 1989), and Black has at least equalized, with active pieces in return for his blocked c-pawn.

Yet if White doesn't force things with Qb3, then he had better play Bd3 and let Black exchange bishops, else the escapee on f5 will be more active than his own piece. And with that, the game will again be at least equal for Black.

That is why in the good versions of the Exchange White waits until move 3 or 4 to capture on d4. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5, the freedom of Black's bishop is only optical, because if 5...Bf5? then 6.Bxf6 and if then Qxf6? Nxd5. Or in that line if 5...Be7 6.e3 Bf5?, then 7.Qb3 really does win a pawn--and so on.

If you did not know about 4...Bf5, you probably also do not know the following, and someone ought to tell you: White cannot play the Exchange with advantage after  2.Nf3 or 3.Nf3 or 4.Nf3 either. The plan Markovich described above (with ...g6 and ...Bf5) again allows Black to solve his bishop problems there. 

No, after Nf3, White must play other main lines of the QGD to try for advantage, lines which constrain the black bishop by NOT exchanging. These are fine for White, but more work than the Exchange to prepare.

All of this is undoubtedly in these pages many times over, and we would be off the topic of the Noteboom, except that these are just  the reasons why the Triangle System has the virtue of avoiding (all but the harmless lines of) the QGD Exchange.


But only a quick Bf5 does not solve black's problems.

Compare with the common 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 c6 6. e3 Bf5
Here white has normal chances of an advantage by Nge2-g3 h3,g4,h4 etc.

I suppose the difference is that here black needs an extra tempo to play Bd6, so Bd6 with extra tempo may really be the point.

Perhaps 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. cxd5 exd5 4. Nc3 Bf5 5. Bf4 c6 (5.. Bd6 6. Nxd5)  6.e3 Bd6
But now some interesting tries are 7. Qb3!? Bxf4 8. Qxb7, 7. g4!?, 7.Bxd6 Qxd6 g4
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #33 - 05/29/10 at 02:42:19
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@RD

I wasn't familiar with 4...Bf5, though I suspect the best that might be said for it is that it is as good as 4...c6 -- I notice that Burgess thought it should equalize while Pachman didn't, for example.  As for all the other stuff, in fact no one needs to tell me.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #32 - 05/28/10 at 23:21:11
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@kylemeister

You must realize that a lot of White's strategic advantage in the QGD, even the Exchange, stems from the difficulty Black has in developing his queen's bishop satisfactorily. If Black can do that with impunity, he is equal.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.cxd5 exd5 Black can just play 4...Bf5 straight away, instantly solving this major strategic problem.  White's only attempt to exact a price for this is 4.Nc3 Bf5 5.Qb3, which hits d5 and b7. But 5...Nc6! defends tactically (the threat is ...Nxd5 double-hitting c2), e.g. 6.Qxb7?! Nxd4 or 6.Qxd5?! Qxd5 7.Nd5 O-O-O and ...Nxd4, or 6.Nxd5? Be4 and ...Nxd4.  So White has nothing better than 6.Nf3 Bb4 (Speelman-Short, Hastings 1989), and Black has at least equalized, with active pieces in return for his blocked c-pawn.

Yet if White doesn't force things with Qb3, then he had better play Bd3 and let Black exchange bishops, else the escapee on f5 will be more active than his own piece. And with that, the game will again be at least equal for Black.

That is why in the good versions of the Exchange White waits until move 3 or 4 to capture on d4. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5, the freedom of Black's bishop is only optical, because if 5...Bf5? then 6.Bxf6 and if then Qxf6? Nxd5. Or in that line if 5...Be7 6.e3 Bf5?, then 7.Qb3 really does win a pawn--and so on.

If you did not know about 4...Bf5, you probably also do not know the following, and someone ought to tell you: White cannot play the Exchange with advantage after  2.Nf3 or 3.Nf3 or 4.Nf3 either. The plan Markovich described above (with ...g6 and ...Bf5) again allows Black to solve his bishop problems there. 

No, after Nf3, White must play other main lines of the QGD to try for advantage, lines which constrain the black bishop by NOT exchanging. These are fine for White, but more work than the Exchange to prepare.

All of this is undoubtedly in these pages many times over, and we would be off the topic of the Noteboom, except that these are just  the reasons why the Triangle System has the virtue of avoiding (all but the harmless lines of) the QGD Exchange.
« Last Edit: 05/29/10 at 00:59:46 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #31 - 05/27/10 at 13:55:14
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I shouldn't have said the Exchange can't be played -- obviously an overstatment.  The Exchange is significantly less advantageous is more like it.
  

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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #30 - 05/27/10 at 04:03:16
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In my experience quite a few white players below master level play the exchange QGD against the triangle setup. At least when they've learned the hard way that black really intents to take on c4 and defend the pawn, leading to a situation in which routine development moves are insufficient.

The triangle exchange variation is really quite harmless. IMHO white gets less than a "normal opening advantage" if black is careful. The old Noteboom book by the two Dutch guys shows a couple of interesting ideas how to play this for black either for clear equality or for a win.
  
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #29 - 05/27/10 at 03:34:13
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MNb wrote on 05/27/10 at 02:03:33:
Which has been known at least since Taimanov, 1980: after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 he calls 6.Nf3 "Ein anspruchsloser Entwicklungszug", something like an unappealing developing move.


Not unappealing. Anspruchslos="without claim/demand/pretention". Unpretentious, unassuming, modest, quiet or moderate fits much better.
« Last Edit: 05/27/10 at 08:39:45 by Alias »  

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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #28 - 05/27/10 at 02:03:33
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Which has been known at least since Taimanov, 1980: after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 he calls 6.Nf3 "Ein anspruchsloser Entwicklungszug", something like an unappealing developing move.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #27 - 05/27/10 at 00:17:18
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kylemeister wrote on 05/26/10 at 22:14:36:
Well, you know, this is book stuff.  As far as I know Black has several moves after 5. Nf3 which are generally regarded as leading to equality, perhaps the simplest being 5...Bf5.  On 5...Bd6 6. e4 de 7. Nxe4 I would have thought that 7...Bb4+ (e.g. 8. Bd2 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Nf6) or 7...Nf6 is headed for equality.



Exactly.  There is little point in discussing this.  The Exchange can't be played with the early Nf3.
  

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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #26 - 05/26/10 at 22:14:36
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Well, you know, this is book stuff.  As far as I know Black has several moves after 5. Nf3 which are generally regarded as leading to equality, perhaps the simplest being 5...Bf5.  On 5...Bd6 6. e4 de 7. Nxe4 I would have thought that 7...Bb4+ (e.g. 8. Bd2 Bxd2+ 9. Qxd2 Nf6) or 7...Nf6 is headed for equality.

  
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Re: Finally a Noteboom book
Reply #25 - 05/26/10 at 21:03:52
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I think it may be the option:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. cxd5 exd5 4. Nc3 c6 5. Bf4 Bd6 (5.. Bf5!? 6. f3!?)

A bit simplified perhaps, but still playable after 6. Bxd6 or 6. Bg3

But white can also wait with 5. Nf3. For example 5.. Bd6 6. e4!? when Rybka thinks white is += after  6.. dxe4 7. Nxe4 Qe7 8. Qe2 Bb4 9. Bd2 Bxd2 10. Kxd2!?
  
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