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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) From Gambit (Read 47373 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #50 - 11/08/21 at 18:03:07
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Bibs wrote on 11/08/21 at 08:36:25:
1.f4 g5

I admit to having played this in online blitz.

I have also played it a few times, via 1.f4 h6 2."any" g5, once in a rated OTB game. I won with black but that proves nothing. I tried it again recently in a casual game and almost managed to dig myself out of the hole, but failed in the end. The Hobbs (or Hobbs Deferred) is not good, but like the Wing Gambit (1.e4 c5 2.b4) it's not as bad as it looks. I'm not posting any refutations, though, because this thread is supposed to be about the From Gambit.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #49 - 11/08/21 at 16:49:24
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A warning to all - play nicely. Thank you.
  
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MartinC
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #48 - 11/08/21 at 09:45:18
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Something quite impressively calm looking - if maybe well known - from LC0 after a quick look.

After 4 Nf3 Nf6 5 g3 Nc6 6 xx it tends to revert to h5,h4 stuff but After 6 d4 it just goes o-o, h6, Qd7, Bg4 develops its rooks and seems to generate plausible play vs the weak e4 spot.

If you let it play its inevitable(?) first idea of 5.. h5 then after 6 d4 h4 7 gh it basically does the same, except obviously with queen side castling instead!
(Nc6, Bf5, Qd7, o-o-o etc.).

White's judged around a soft 60% there, maybe a little less and it seemed quite easy to get into a bit of a tangle.

Its not so scared of 5 Nc3, so I suppose it thinks its getting on for playable. Mind you given that it thinks 1 f4 d5 gives black a tiny advantage, and all of Nf6, e6, c5, g6, Nc6, c6, a6, Nh6, d6, f5, h6, b6, h5, and b5 are better first moves for black this isn't really approval Smiley

Actually 1 f4 h5 is amusingly 'logical' - 2 e4 d5!? and otherwise it reverts to d5/Nf6 in classical style, with the reversed Leningrad heavily deterred!
  
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Bibs
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #47 - 11/08/21 at 08:36:25
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@L4L

Better to cool it. The rudeness is certainly unwelcome.
Let’s play nicely shall we?

1.f4 g5

I admit to having played this in online blitz. I don’t believe it, but one can find that Birds players can sometimes be one trick ponies (see also: BDG). As such, often not familiar with the various g4 gambits versus the Dutch, and suitable responses.

Is it ‘sound’? No. Is it advisable v titled players OTB? No. Does it work v 2300-2400 players in lichess at 2-1 and 3-2? Yes, but that’s practical stuff, not theoretical judgment. 


  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #46 - 11/08/21 at 06:31:54
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Level-4-Lab wrote on 11/08/21 at 05:59:33:
Gambit wrote on 01/19/10 at 07:46:37:
The From Gambit is too well-known. Not so the Hobbs, 1 f4 g5


After 2.fxg5, where is the compensation for Black?

I'm not defending 1...g5, but it has been analyzed in replies 13, 16, 17, and 36. Ignoring that analysis and saying "where is the compensation" is not helping anybody.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #45 - 08/20/19 at 02:04:19
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I agree that 4.d4 is better for white, but I am having trouble with A3. 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4 5.Ng5 d5 6.Nc3 Be7 7.e4 (these last two plies are my best guess) dxe4 8.Ngxe4 Qxd4 and here you have 9.Bb5+ (?). Stockfish gives  simply 9.Qxd4 Nxd4 10.Bd3.
Edited:
i wrote 5.d4
  
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Re: Neo-From Gambit
Reply #44 - 08/19/19 at 18:52:28
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A2. After 5…d6 6. e4! Black has two reasonable looking attempts, 6…Bh6 or h6. (6…  Be7 is significantly weaker). We analyse each briefly in turn.  A2(i)  6….Bh6 7.h4 dxe5 8.d5 Nce7 9.Nc3 a6 . Now instead of Lakdawala’s   10.Be2  10.Bc4  Stockfish evaluates this position as clearly better for White. (+1.71 depth 40).
A2(ii) After 6…h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.e6+! Ke8 (8… Bxe6 9.d5) 
Lakdawala continues  9.Qxg4 Qf6 10.d5 Ne5  here 11.Qh3 improves on his suggested 11.Qh5+  and after the proposed moves of Stockfish and Komodo 11…..Be7 12.Be2 Qh4+ 13.Qxh4 Bxh4+ 14.g3 Stockfish evaluates the position as better for White +1.1 depth 40.
Variation A3. This is the most interesting and the variations are new. After   5….d4  White continues with the new move 6.Nc3!  Best for Black is 7….Bxg4 ( 7….dxe4 8.Ngxe4 Qxd4 ( 8…Nxd4 9.Nd6+)  9.Bb5+ evaluation  +1.37 depth 40)
8.exd5! Bxc1 9.Rxc1 Nce7 10.Bc4 Nf5 11.0-0 Qg5 ..The position at this point deserves a diagram because the best white move based on position evaluation  is only found By Stockfish or Komodo after a depth of 35 is reached.The key move is 12. Bb5+  with an evaluation of +1.27 at depth 45. 12…Kd8  is evaluated as the best move though 12…Kf8  should be investigated by the From player. Overall White can bust the Neo-From.
  
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Re: NEO-From Gambit
Reply #43 - 08/19/19 at 18:48:25
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After 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3. Nf3 g5 the computers at this stage are in agreement that 4.d4 is best. After 4….g4  5.Ng5  we have the stem position.   There are three variations to consider, A1. 5…Bh6, A2. 5…d6  and A3. 5…d4.
Variation A1.
The analysis of this variation by GM Kosten (Chess publishing.com) or Lakdawala can be very substantially improved. In fact White has a near winning advantage in this line.
After  6. Ne4 Bxc1 7. Qxc1 Nxd4  8.Nbc3 Qh4+ Now  instead of 9.Nf2 as played in T.Bohn- K.Ziimmermann, Germany 2003, and endorsed by Lakdawala, White plays 9.g3 Qh5  and now 10.Qf4!  gives White a  winning advantage.(Stockfish depth 41 + 2.59).
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #42 - 11/22/15 at 15:25:06
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Hello.

In the line being discussed:
(1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Nc3 0-0 6.e3 Ng4 7.Ne4)

This 7...Nc6 move looks very reasonable.

I took a look at 8.Bb5, which I originally thought must be the way to play the position for white. As detailed in the last post other modes of development look to give black a very free game. With Bb5 and a later exchange on c6 however white seems to be able to diffuse most of black's pressure. The price he pays though is that there will be some simplification of the position and not in many continuations does it seem like white gains an edge that is entirely relevant.



Have a nice day.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #41 - 11/21/15 at 15:32:58
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In Kaissiber 36# (2010) after 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Nc3, Hergert considered 5...0-0 insufficient in view of 6.e3 Ng4 ("?" Hergert) 7.Ne4 Nxh2 8.Nxh2 etc.

Here is a new idea: (5...0-0 6.e3 Ng4 7.Ne4) 7...Nc6! 8.Nxd6 Qxd6! and Black has space, development and open lines. White has a pawn and a cramped position.

Sample lines:

9.Be2 Bf5! 10.0-0 Nb4 with attack

9.c3 Bf5! 10.d4 Rfe8 with attack

9.Bc4 Bf5! 10.d3 (10.0-0 Be4 =+) Rae8 equal/unclear

9.Bd3!? is Stockfish's favourite evaluating it to a very slight
White edge, but who would want to play that, locking in ones owns pawns?

My feeling is that Black has good compensation, but I may have overlooked something - or am I just over estimating Blacks pluses?

By the way, does anyone know about any examples of 5.Nc3 in practical play since 2010? In my database it seems that 5.d4 remains the most popular choise (and Black fares well with around fifty percent). 5.e3 has been seen twice (2-0).
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #40 - 05/20/11 at 10:45:20
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I've modified a couple of the posts so that the games can be played through - don't forget to use the two new buttons - 'PGN' for games and the one to the right with a chess board for diagrams! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #39 - 05/09/11 at 14:12:43
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Stefan Buecker wrote:Thanks. On 4...g5 Volker Hergert had considered both 5.g3 and 5.c3, because the former is the main line in most sources, and because he believed that 5.c3! +/- was strong and close to a refutation of 4...g5. The intended contrast (between the main line 5.g3, which doesn't give White much, on one side and the unusual 5.c3! +/- on the other side) was later spoiled by me, when I found a hidden rescue for Black at a moment when much of the layout work was already done. It seemed too late to include 5.d4. We still believe that Kaissiber #36 shows convincingly that Black has an easier life after 4...Nf6, in comparison to 4...g5, when both 5.g3 and 5.c3 appear to involve more risks for Black. But the difference between g5 and Nf6 is not as big as it had seemed at first. The "!" after 4...Nf6 on page 30 can be seen as just a relic of the earlier version.

In 1989-91 I had invested much time on studying the Bird and From's Gambit, for a work on 1.f4 which never reached the shops. But I had always preferred 5.g3 or 5.c3!? over 5.d4, because the latter seemed a bit boring. Obviously I was mistaken, the new ideas later developed for White make it difficult for Black to equalize.



STEFAN, I didn't know you had analyzed 5.c3!?, but I noticed this move from a GM who lives in my city. I don't know Hergert's point of view in Kaissiber 36 either, but look following games which I consider very interesting:

A) 5..Nc6 6.Qa4 ( 6.d4!? g4 7.Ng5 ) 6..g4 7.Nd4 ( 7.Qe4+ Qe7 8.Qxe7+ Ngxe7= ) 7..Qh4+ 8.g3! Bxg3+ 9.Kd1 Bd7 10.Bg2 Bf2?! ( 10..Nd8! see analysis in C ) 11.Ncx6 bxc6? ( 11..Ne7 12.Qf4! ) 12.Bxc6 ( 12.Rf1! and 13.Qf4 ) 12..Rd8 was Meca (2065)-Melchor (2085), Barcelona, 2001 and now I think 13.Bxd7+ Rxd7 14.Qf4! is adventagous for White ( anyway first player won in 29 moves with 13.d3 etc. )

B) 5..g4 6.Qa4+ ( unique ) 6..Nc6 ( 6..Bd7 then perhaps 7.Qe4+ Ne7 8.Ne5 ) 7.Nd4 Bd7 ( 7..Qh4+ trasposes to A ; 7..Nge7 8.Nb5 += ) 8.Nb5 ( maybe better 8.Nxc6 Bxc6 13.Qxg4 ) 8..Nf6 ( 8..Be5!? and if 9.d4 a6! ) 9.Nxd6+ cxd6 10.d3 with initiative ( menacing Bg5 or Na3 and Nc4/Nb5 ) as Guerrero (2212)-Oms (2104), Barcelona, 2002 ( finally, 1-0 )

C) 5..g4 6.Qa4+ Nc6 7.Nd4 ( trasposing to A ) 7..Qh4+ 8.g3! Bxg3+ 9.Kd1 Bd7 10.Bg2 Nge7?! ( 10..Nd8! as pointed by R.Guerrero is the correct move. There are dotzens of lines, I'll give some as example: 11.Nb5 - 11.Qc2 Bd6 - 11..Be5!? - 11..Bd6 13.Nxd6 cxd6 14.Qd4 with initiative; 11..Bxb5 12.Qxb5+ c6 13.Qc5 - 12.d4 c6 - or 12..a6 13.N1a3 and 12..Qf2 - 13.dxe5 cxb5 in all them very complicated game ) 11.hxg3 Qxg3 12.Bxc6 bxc6 (!?) 13.Qa5!? trying to avoid ..h5. Finally game ended draw after hard battle, but logically White should to have win, Melchor (2040)-Guerrero (2212), Barcelona, 2002

Anyboby knows more games of theoretical intherest ?
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #38 - 12/17/10 at 20:03:18
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Taimanov (1980) thinks 8.d4 better: h4 9.Bf4 or 9.Rg1.
  

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Re: From Gambit
Reply #37 - 12/17/10 at 15:12:25
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A recent game with the From  and definitely one to play through from Black's point of view!
What about Black's 6...Be7!?


Regards,
Nik
« Last Edit: 05/20/11 at 10:43:07 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #36 - 12/17/10 at 15:07:06
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/22/10 at 14:40:48:
LDZ,
I think TN's suggestion was tongue-in-cheek.

1.f4 g5 2.fxg5 h6 3.g6!? looks pretty strong- the idea is similar to the h4-Trompowsky, wrecking the Black kingside pawn structure, but with the advantage of having level material instead of sacrificing a pawn for it.

1.f4 h6 can be met simply by 2.e4, occupying the centre.  Or 2.Nf3 g5 3.fxg5 hxg5 4.Nxg5 followed by a quick d4 (supporting the knight after it gets hit by ...e5) and e4, occupying the centre.

I don't know about the From Gambit being "too well known"- most of the people at the 1800-level don't know how to defend against it in my experience, and if you have 1...e5 as one of your main responses to 1.d4 then it surely makes sense to use it against 1.f4.

I will pick up this issue Kaissiber shortly- will be interested to see the analysis of both 4...g5 (clearly the view that 5.g3 is critical has been overturned) and 4...Nf6 and the Neo-From, as I experimented with the latter with Black as well but have never been convinced of its soundness.  Worth noting, btw, that as well as the Neo-From being reachable via 1.f4 Nc6, I think the mainline From can be reached via 1.f4 d6 although in either case you need to know a specific line of the King's Gambit upon 2.e4 e5 or 2.Nf3 e5 3.e4.


In the game below 4.g6 simply doesn't work but probably because of the dubious 3.d3?!

4. g6 fxg6 5. Nf3 Nf6 and now

6. g3  Bg7 7. Bg2 O-O =/+

6. e3 Nc6 7. Be2 Bf5 8. Nh4 e6 9. O-O Be7 =/+

6. Nh4 ? g5 7. Ng6 Rg8 8. Nxf8 Rxf8 -/+



PS. My opponent was a die Bird opening player but hasn't the finest idea of what to do against the Hobbs gambit!?
« Last Edit: 05/20/11 at 10:43:32 by GMTonyKosten »  
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