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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article (Read 10692 times)
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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #12 - 04/15/11 at 11:12:21
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TN wrote on 02/11/10 at 21:17:05:


As said before, 3.e4 does not lead to any advantage 4 white. But there's an interesting offbeat reply: 3.Nd2, with the idea of playing a Stonewall-Formation. The delay of Nf3 gives white some  additional features, like playing f4, and then Ng1-f3-e5.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #11 - 03/13/10 at 12:25:13
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It's amusing that imbalances are such a concern when Nf6/e6 (or more specifically NID/QID users) players have to put up with the London and the near auto-draw it triggers. In comparsion the 2. Bg5 e6 Tromp is dynamic.  Grin

(If anyone's wondering why I called the London an auto-draw, see Prie's annotations to Grachev-Leko, Tal Memorial Blitz, 2008 in CBM 127 - even the suggested improvements are dead equal)
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #10 - 03/13/10 at 08:57:06
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Markovich wrote on 02/18/10 at 02:00:08:
If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 1.d4 with 1...d5, for crying out loud! 

"2...e6 is just as effective as 2...c5." Just as effective for producing the draw, I'll buy that, but not just as effective for producing the win, imho.  But my main point had to do with repertoire considerations.  Unless Black is a Nimzo player (or a QGD player who unaccountably forgot to play 1...d5), then 2...e6 doesn't make much sense, nor is it very enterprising.  Why allow the Torre when you don't have to?

Well I wouldnt know of any other players who would answer with 2..e6 than Nimzo players tbh, maybe a Benoni-chap or a QGD quy who wants to avoid the Nc3-lines in their openings?

Personally I dont like the e6-lines as given here (I play 2..d5 usually.), but this is the line also recommended by Khalifman in his Karpov repertoire, which indeed is based on the Nimzo. Judging from that (and my own experience) it is very hard to beat, but it is also hard to create winning chances as you mention.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #9 - 02/18/10 at 15:26:51
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/18/10 at 14:19:46:
Ofcourse i know this game! These 2 Gm's are from my country.

I kind of thought you did  Wink I'm going to have a closer look at this line myself, some local youngsters have started playing the Tromp against me and it would be a bit embarassing to lose to my old favorite weapon!

I wonder if Palliser in his new "Starting Out" book (which I haven't bought yet) mentions these aggressive 2...g6 lines? Did he even realize they were a danger to White?
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #8 - 02/18/10 at 14:19:46
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Ofcourse i know this game! These 2 Gm's are from my country. I also have Davies' book on the Tromp and he improves somewhere in this game. I also remember that ...a6 is not the best move and that Black could sacrifice something earlier. Sorry i don't have the analysis here with me now but if you could spend some time with an engine you could easily see that White's position is very dangerous (trust me on that! I have managed to make some local Tromp experts to abandon their favorite opening because of this simple variation! Wink). Unfortunatelly the Chess Informant notes that Davies uses to annotate this game are not very accurate (i'm refering to some g5 ideas).
  
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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #7 - 02/18/10 at 11:05:17
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/17/10 at 23:38:56:
As i know the 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4?! is considered toothless because a quick 3...c5 4.e5 h6 5.Bc1 Nh7 if my memory doesn't fail me. I think i saw something in the recent CBM 134 where Rogozenko analyses this..

Interesting. This is a line I never took very seriously when I played the Tromp as White, so that may be a further practical advantage of it. I think it also got a page in Burgess' old book "101 Opening Surprises".

Ametanoitos wrote on 02/17/10 at 23:38:56:
As for an KID player i have discovered a nice line:
2.Bg5 g6! 3.Bxf6 exf6 4.g3 h5 5.h4 d6 and Black plays Bh6!!-Nd7-f5-Nf6-Ng4!-Re8 and it is very difficult to avoid all kind of sacrifices on f2 or e3. It works perfect in practice and stands fantastic in computer analysis.

This plan was Davies' recommendation against the Tromp in "The Chess Player's Battle Manual" (1998). There are other move orders for White to reach his standard setup: He can throw in e3, c4, N(b)c3 and N(g)e2 in some order before g3. I assume you have it under control and you have enough waiting moves to simply wait with ...h5 until White plays g3? ...f5, 0-0 and Nd7-f6 are fairly standard moves anyway. By 2005 Davies had changed his mind and in "The Trompowsky, 2nd Ed." he doubted that Black could equalize. His main game there was:

[Event "GRE-chT"]
[Site "Athens"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Skembris, Spyridon"]
[Black "Nikolaidis, Ioannis"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A45"]
[WhiteElo "2450"]
[BlackElo "2565"]
[PlyCount "79"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 d6 3. Bxf6 exf6 4. e3 f5 5. c4 Nd7 6. Nc3 g6 7. g3 h5 8. h4 Nf6 9. Bg2 Bh6 10. Nge2 Ng4 11. Qd3 c6 12. b4 a6 13. Nf4 O-O 14. a4 Re8 15. Kf1 Qe7 16. Bf3 Ne5 17. Qe2 Nxf3 18. Qxf3 Be6 19. Nxe6 Qxe6 20. d5 cxd5 21. Nxd5 Rac8 22. Nb6 Rc6 23. a5 Bg7 24. Rb1 Bf6 25. Kg2 Bd8 26. b5 axb5 27. cxb5 Rc2 28. Nd5 Bxa5 29. Rhd1 b6 30. Rbc1 Rec8 31. Rxc2 Rxc2 32. Nf4 Qe5 33. Rd5 Qe7 34. Rd4 Rc5 35. Rd5 Rc2 36. Rd4 Kg7 37. Nd5 Qe5 38. Qd1 Rb2 39. Qa1 Rxb5 40. f4 1-0

To me it looks like Skembris was very careful to control all threats to e3 and f2, but I haven't really analyzed the game.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #6 - 02/18/10 at 09:02:52
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Markovich wrote on 02/18/10 at 02:00:08:
TN wrote on 02/17/10 at 21:35:44:
If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 3.Nf3 with 3...d5, when after White's best move, 4.c4 or 4.e3 Be7 5.c4, we are in a main-line QGD for Black. This does enable White to avert the critical 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Ne4!, though. Black can also play 3...c5 4.c3/e3 d5, although then Black has to learn a new variation.

I agree that 2...c5 is a good antidote, but 2...e6 is just as effective. The difference is that both moves lead to positions and pawn structures of a different nature.


If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 1.d4 with 1...d5, for crying out loud! I know a number of QGD practitioners who play the QGD via. a 1...Nf6 move order, including Short, so it isn't so simple. But if Black meets 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5 with 2...Nf6, then 2...d5 is the most suitable answer.

"2...e6 is just as effective as 2...c5." Just as effective for producing the draw, I'll buy that, but not just as effective for producing the win, imho.  But my main point had to do with repertoire considerations.  Unless Black is a Nimzo player (or a QGD player who unaccountably forgot to play 1...d5), then 2...e6 doesn't make much sense, nor is it very enterprising.  Why allow the Torre when you don't have to?


A variation being more positional does not automatically make it more drawish. The 2...c5 variation is more tactical, but Black can also create imbalances in the 2...e6 line, especially after 3.e4 (the most common move) 3...c5!?, or by following the Martin article, where Black usually achieves French-style positions with good counterplay and plenty of positional imbalances (e.g. bishop pair vs. space or lead in development).

I don't see why a player would want to avoid the Torre when it is rather harmless. Nowadays I am especially happy when my opponent plays the Torre since I know I will equalise out of the opening, and it doesn't take long to learn the fairly small amount of theory required to achieve full equality against the Torre.

It is noteworthy that in 'Dealing with d4 Deviations', Cox recommended 2...e6 against 2.Bg5 for not just Nimzo-Indian protagonists, but also to Benoni specialists.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #5 - 02/18/10 at 02:00:08
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TN wrote on 02/17/10 at 21:35:44:
If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 3.Nf3 with 3...d5, when after White's best move, 4.c4 or 4.e3 Be7 5.c4, we are in a main-line QGD for Black. This does enable White to avert the critical 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Ne4!, though. Black can also play 3...c5 4.c3/e3 d5, although then Black has to learn a new variation.

I agree that 2...c5 is a good antidote, but 2...e6 is just as effective. The difference is that both moves lead to positions and pawn structures of a different nature.


If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 1.d4 with 1...d5, for crying out loud! 

"2...e6 is just as effective as 2...c5." Just as effective for producing the draw, I'll buy that, but not just as effective for producing the win, imho.  But my main point had to do with repertoire considerations.  Unless Black is a Nimzo player (or a QGD player who unaccountably forgot to play 1...d5), then 2...e6 doesn't make much sense, nor is it very enterprising.  Why allow the Torre when you don't have to?
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #4 - 02/17/10 at 23:38:56
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As i know the 2.Bg5 e6 3.e4?! is considered toothless because a quick 3...c5 4.e5 h6 5.Bc1 Nh7 if my memory doesn't fail me. I think i saw something in the recent CBM 134 where Rogozenko analyses this. If i was White i'd put my money on 3.e3 although i don't think that this should lead to some sort of theoritical advantage whatsoever. Just another easy and typical position to play.

As for an KID player i have discovered a nice line:
2.Bg5 g6! 3.Bxf6 exf6 4.g3 h5 5.h4 d6 and Black plays Bh6!!-Nd7-f5-Nf6-Ng4!-Re8 and it is very difficult to avoid all kind of sacrifices on f2 or e3. It works perfect in practice and stands fantastic in computer analysis.
  
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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #3 - 02/17/10 at 21:35:44
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Markovich wrote on 02/17/10 at 16:04:37:
I think that 2...e6 makes sense against the Tromp if you're a Nimzo player, since then 3.Nf3 merely takes you to another part of your repertoire.  But if you're not a Nimzo player, then why would you want to expose yourself to the Torre?  Not that it's something to be feared that much, but it's a game of chess that some Whites enjoy, so why let them play it?

When I play 1...Nf6 it's with a view to playing a King's Indian, Gruenfeld or a Modern Benoni in the traditional, 2...c5 form.  So I don't have to play against the Torre, and I would rather not.  Besides that, I think that 2...c5 is the most dynamic way to meet the Tromp, and that is what I play.  Dembo's book, what's it called, Beating the Anti-King's-Indians or something, is a good reference.


If Black plays the QGD, he can meet 3.Nf3 with 3...d5, when after White's best move, 4.c4 or 4.e3 Be7 5.c4, we are in a main-line QGD for Black. This does enable White to avert the critical 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Ne4!, though. Black can also play 3...c5 4.c3/e3 d5, although then Black has to learn a new variation.

I agree that 2...c5 is a good antidote, but 2...e6 is just as effective. The difference is that both moves lead to positions and pawn structures of a different nature.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #2 - 02/17/10 at 16:04:37
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I think that 2...e6 makes sense against the Tromp if you're a Nimzo player, since then 3.Nf3 merely takes you to another part of your repertoire.  But if you're not a Nimzo player, then why would you want to expose yourself to the Torre?  Not that it's something to be feared that much, but it's a game of chess that some Whites enjoy, so why let them play it?

When I play 1...Nf6 it's with a view to playing a King's Indian, Gruenfeld or a Modern Benoni in the traditional, 2...c5 form.  So I don't have to play against the Torre, and I would rather not.  Besides that, I think that 2...c5 is the most dynamic way to meet the Tromp, and that is what I play.  Dembo's book, what's it called, Beating the Anti-King's-Indians or something, is a good reference.
  

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Re: Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
Reply #1 - 02/12/10 at 01:40:58
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White has a few other third moves. I would prefer the flexible 3.Nd2, evt. playing a Stonewall with the bishop outside the pawn chain.
  

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Trashing the Tromp by Andrew Martin - article
02/11/10 at 21:17:05
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Sorry if this has already been posted on the Forum, but recently I discovered the following interesting article offering a repertoire for Black against the Trompowsky: http://www.jeremysilman.com/chess_bits_pieces/091203_trashing_tromp.html

Food for thought! The only hole I could find was the omission of 5.c3 d5 6.Nd2 c5 7.Ngf3 with the idea of 7...cd4 8.cd4 de4 9.Ne5, although I believe this line has been rendered completely toothless anyhow.

  

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