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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA (Read 14572 times)
HoemberChess
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #22 - 03/05/10 at 16:43:51
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@TN:

@TN:
"I am considering your recommendation, "3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3", in the QGA.
But there are a few questions about move-order tricks.

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3
* 2..Nf6 3.c4 dxc4 4.Nc3 //That's your recommendation.
* 2..e6 3.c4 dxc4
     and now? 4.Nc3 ?
     If so, what if 4..c6? (I don't want to cooperate in reaching any Noteboom position. Can White avoid that defence?)
     And what if 4..a6?

On the Slav. (1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 c6)
Should I switch to 4.Nc3 to remain consistent with the "4.Nc3 QGA"? (Or my present 4.e3 is good enough?)

Is there any other move order by which Black can bring me to a "3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3"-QGA?"




I was going to ask these questions but in the meantime I realized that I know the answers. Sad
(I don't allow either the Main Line Slav or the Vienna Variation of the QGD through other move-orders, so it would be silly for me to adopt 4.Nc3 in the QGA.)

Hence my choice, 7.Bb3 in the 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 QGA (as suggested by BPaulsen and others),
which is exactly the Avrukh-repertoire. Smiley

But I have yet to find something against 4...Bg4...

  

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kylemeister
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #21 - 02/19/10 at 19:20:23
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The Mannheim puts me in mind of a few recent games by Ilya Nyzhnyk (13-year-old Ukrainian who will probably be a GM any minute now) and Larry Kaufman.  There is also 4...Nc6, however.
  
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LeeRoth
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #20 - 02/19/10 at 18:58:03
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HoemberChess wrote on 02/17/10 at 16:39:18:
I don't have time to memorize tricky 20th moves against a defence I have never faced in OTB play yet.


Hoember,

I truncated your quote a bit, but the highlighted part is to me the heart of it.  You don't see the QGA in your OTB play, so all you need is a simple, easy to play line, without a lot of theory. 

The suggestions above are all well-taken and theoretically sound, but they all require more work than you want to put in. 

I would suggest instead the Mannheim Variation 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4 4.Qa4+.  You can play this tomorrow, without knowing anything, and you'll get a reasonable position.   

I can't promise you an edge.   The Mannheim is presumed to be dead equal theoretically.  But all the pieces are still on the board and you'll have chances to make use of the half-open c-file to outplay your opponent.

Don't believe me?  Here's a sampling of White wins:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1125960

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008293 

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008293

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1008293

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1020133

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1086276   

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1451858
      
  
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TN
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #19 - 02/18/10 at 08:51:41
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HoemberChess wrote on 02/17/10 at 16:39:18:
TN wrote on 02/17/10 at 09:38:28:
Having reread the thread, my recommendation for you is to get out of your comfort zone, play some sharp chess abounding with tactics, and take the plunge with 4.Nc3. White's game doesn't hang by a thread in these lines, either - even if he makes an inaccuracy he can still claim compensation and attacking chances.

True, White takes some risks, but so does Black, and if you know your theory well, you can gain a very strong initiative out of the opening if the opponent makes a small error because of the sharp nature of the opening.  You may find the positions difficult at first, but you will learn a lot about playing aggressively, seizing the initiative and sacrifices for dynamic compensation by studying this variation.

But if you want to fight for an advantage, play 7.Bb3. If you suffer from chess opening inertia, play 7.a4 and rely on your middlegame ability to win games.



@TN:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 dxc4
and now 4.Nc3?
------

In a detailed private message of July 2009, you were satisfied with and praised the White repertoire I had sent you for checking out. (With 2.Nf3 and exactly the same lines.) Now I am urged to get out of my comfort zone... Smiley
------

So, then 7.a4, if I don't have time to memorize tricky 20th moves against a defence I have never faced in OTB play yet.


Sorry if my advice is at times inconsistent - I tend to change my mind quite often on openings. For example, a year ago I was 100% convinced that 3.e5 was the best move against the Caro-Kann, but now I am certain that 3.Nc3 and 3.Nd2 are the 2 best moves for White.

In the 4.Nc3 line, the theory doesn't seem to go to move 20 (from what I read in Semkov's book, the theory ends at about move 15), although I can understand if you don't want to learn the theory, especially if the Main-Line Slav or Vienna isn't part of your current repertoire (4.Nc3 c6 or 4...e6).

@Smyslov_Fan

My experience was fairly similar, until I started consistently facing IM/GM opposition, who played the 3...e5 4.Nf3 ed4 5.Bc4 Nc6 variation very frequently. Nowadays I play a range of variations against the QGA (3.Nf3, 3.e4, 3.e3) and find that my opponents tend to stick to the main lines, meaning that I can't always guarantee an advantage out of the opening.


  

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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #18 - 02/17/10 at 23:29:36
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[quote author=71565C545B5C4B390 link=1266229255/15#15 date=1266394694@Ametanoitos:
John Watson!? (Book title?) [/quote]

In the Secrets of Modern Chess Strategy. The line with 7.Bd3 (with a combination of a quick Re1)was also analysed well in the Raetsky-Chetverik book and they said that it is dangerous and if i remember correctly they refute a recomendation of Rizzitano there. This seemed attractive for me back then.
  
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HoemberChess
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #17 - 02/17/10 at 16:39:18
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TN wrote on 02/17/10 at 09:38:28:
Having reread the thread, my recommendation for you is to get out of your comfort zone, play some sharp chess abounding with tactics, and take the plunge with 4.Nc3. White's game doesn't hang by a thread in these lines, either - even if he makes an inaccuracy he can still claim compensation and attacking chances.

True, White takes some risks, but so does Black, and if you know your theory well, you can gain a very strong initiative out of the opening if the opponent makes a small error because of the sharp nature of the opening.  You may find the positions difficult at first, but you will learn a lot about playing aggressively, seizing the initiative and sacrifices for dynamic compensation by studying this variation.

But if you want to fight for an advantage, play 7.Bb3. If you suffer from chess opening inertia, play 7.a4 and rely on your middlegame ability to win games.



@TN:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 dxc4
and now 4.Nc3?
------

In a detailed private message of July 2009, you were satisfied with and praised the White repertoire I had sent you for checking out. (With 2.Nf3 and exactly the same lines.) Now I am urged to get out of my comfort zone... Smiley
------

So, then 7.a4, if I don't have time to memorize tricky 20th moves against a defence I have never faced in OTB play yet.
  

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TN
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #16 - 02/17/10 at 09:38:28
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Having reread the thread, my recommendation for you is to get out of your comfort zone, play some sharp chess abounding with tactics, and take the plunge with 4.Nc3. White's game doesn't hang by a thread in these lines, either - even if he makes an inaccuracy he can still claim compensation and attacking chances.

True, White takes some risks, but so does Black, and if you know your theory well, you can gain a very strong initiative out of the opening if the opponent makes a small error because of the sharp nature of the opening.  You may find the positions difficult at first, but you will learn a lot about playing aggressively, seizing the initiative and sacrifices for dynamic compensation by studying this variation.

But if you want to fight for an advantage, play 7.Bb3. If you suffer from chess opening inertia, play 7.a4 and rely on your middlegame ability to win games.

  

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HoemberChess
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #15 - 02/17/10 at 08:18:14
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@Markovich
and
@Daniel:

The move-orders are consistent and I am satisfied with 2.Nf3. I have no objection to the position arising after "1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.0-0 a6".

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 dxc I am never going to get a 3.e4-QGA. (Why on earth play 1.d4 d5 2.c4, then?!)
I wouldn't like to go into a debate about move-orders.


@Ametanoitos:
John Watson!? (Book title?)
  

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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #14 - 02/17/10 at 03:56:49
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Play c4 on move 2.  No reason not to.

Then you can try 1.  d4 d5 2.  c4 dc  3.  e4 as advocated by Schandorff.
  
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #13 - 02/17/10 at 01:47:08
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HoemberChess wrote on 02/16/10 at 22:41:03:
I emphasized my move-orders in the opening post...
(1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4 etc (3..e6 4.Bg5 etc)            
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.c4 dxc4 etc
           (3..e6 4.Qc2 Nf6 5.Bg5 etc)
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 dxc4 etc
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 etc
)
...which means there is no room for 3.e4s.

I didn't object to sharp play in general. I wrote that the QGA part of the Avrukh-book was full of lines where White's play hung on a thin thread.


The solution is over-determined, as we say in mathematics; it does not exist.  Relax some of the constraints.
  

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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #12 - 02/16/10 at 23:20:56
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I very much like 7.Qe2 b5 8.Bd3 a la Dzinzi. Also 7.Bd3 was analysed by Watson in his books and looks nice.
  
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #11 - 02/16/10 at 22:41:03
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Markovich wrote on 02/16/10 at 21:05:16:
I think that a great case can be made for 3.e4, but I don't know that it really satisfies anyone's desire to stay away from sharp play.  I don't sympathize very much with that desire, since the best lines against the QGA lead to sharp play.  Let's face it, either the IQP gives rise to sharp play, or Black looks forward to a dandy ending.

I hate to advise anyone to do this, but if you really want to avoid all complications, play 7.dxc5.  The queenless middlegame is not all that easy for Black, and it's quite annoying for Blacks who want "interesting" positions.  The latest Semko book is a useful guide.


I emphasized my move-orders in the opening post...
(1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 dxc4 etc (3..e6 4.Bg5 etc)            
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.c4 dxc4 etc
           (3..e6 4.Qc2 Nf6 5.Bg5 etc)
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c4 dxc4 etc
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 etc
)
...which means there is no room for 3.e4s.

I didn't object to sharp play in general. I wrote that the QGA part of the Avrukh-book was full of lines where White's play hung on a thin thread.
  

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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #10 - 02/16/10 at 21:05:16
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I think that a great case can be made for 3.e4, but I don't know that it really satisfies anyone's desire to stay away from sharp play.  I don't sympathize very much with that desire, since the best lines against the QGA lead to sharp play.  Let's face it, either the IQP gives rise to sharp play, or Black looks forward to a dandy ending.

I hate to advise anyone to do this, but if you really want to avoid all complications, play 7.dxc5.  The queenless middlegame is not all that easy for Black, and it's quite annoying for Blacks who want "interesting" positions.  The latest Semko book is a useful guide.
  

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HoemberChess
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #9 - 02/16/10 at 20:18:51
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/16/10 at 01:24:25:
HoemberChess wrote on 02/15/10 at 13:10:02:
Does it (7.a4) have enough "bite"?
So, you suggest studying the Khalifman book (Kramnik rep.) ?

Both 4.Nc3 and 7.e4 are gambit-style. Just what I argued against.
(Also in the Avrukh-book, there are a lot of forced lines up to move 15-20sg, where I have to remember "only" moves in sharp positions, while I can't afford to spend so much time studying one opening which, incidentally, I have never had to face in practice yet.)


TN wrote on 02/15/10 at 12:24:07:
7.a4 was recommended by Khalifman if I recall correctly, and seemed like a good choice, at least if you want a reliable long-term weapon against the QGA.

Personally, I've always thought that 7.e4!? was an interesting and quite effective surprise weapon. There are a few routes to equality for Black, but the line is old and forgotten and if you are prepared in the critical lines, then your opponent's ride will probably be bumpier than yours.

Otherwise, there's something to be said for playing in gambit style with 4.Nc3, which leads to quite interesting positions.



7. a4 has significant bite, and is far from being harmless. There's a reason it's been played by several super GMs.

That aside, 7. Bb3 is still probably the way to go.


I like the looks of 7.Bb3 best.
(But... but when I look at, for example, the pages with 7..b5 8.a4 b4 9.e4 cxd4 10.Nbd2 Bb7 11.e5, I find sacrifices and long variations, which I need to know by heart, everywhere... While the probability of not getting to play them over-the-board in the next two years is very high.)

@BPaulsen:
What do _you_ play on move 7? Smiley
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: looking for an alternative to Avrukh's QGA
Reply #8 - 02/16/10 at 05:18:37
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Considering how rarely the QGA occurs, I don't think you need a "surprise weapon" as White.  It seems that 3.e4 is most popular in the US, so I play 3.e3 (almost always transposing to 4.e3 positions) aiming for 7.a4 positions. 

I don't know what the situation is in Europe, but I have had great success as White against the QGA, mostly because there are so few people who are willing to stay with the critical lines as Black if White doesn't play 3.e4.

Do others have a similar experience?
  
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