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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Birds opening lines for black (Read 35933 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #37 - 07/05/11 at 18:19:22
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Indeed so. White doesn't get enough pressure for it? I'm not sure ...
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #36 - 07/05/11 at 17:45:05
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Eh?  Thereby hangs a pawn, no?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #35 - 07/05/11 at 17:36:20
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Interesting -- I hadn't looked at 7 Qe1.

I guess if White wants speed, the fastest is 7 e4!? straightaway! No idea what happens then but 7 ...0-0 8 e5 looks interesting ...
  
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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #34 - 07/05/11 at 16:32:51
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[quote author=2F2C2620410 link=1266506459/33#33 date=1309865169]I think the 'Polar' plan of 7 c3 and 8 Na3 is more dynamically charged than 7 Nc3, which I agree seems unpromising.[/quote]
That's my guess too. I just gave the example as part of my answer to your question.
Even better might be 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.o-o e6 6.d3 Be7 7.Qe1 a la Malaniuk. It's often a good way to utilize the extra tempo.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #33 - 07/05/11 at 11:26:09
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I think the 'Polar' plan of 7 c3 and 8 Na3 is more dynamically charged than 7 Nc3, which I agree seems unpromising. I'm certainly not claiming an advantage for White, but at least with Qe1, Nc2, h3, g4 or e4 according to circumstances the Polar paws might begin to show themselves! Does the dearth of high-level games here (and the complete silence of books) imply this is (seen as) a [i]worse[/i] version for Black than if he'd played ...g6/...Bg7? Haven't a clue! Anyone?

Meanwhile the 4 c4 plan I mentioned above might be interesting -- but of course Black could play ...e6 before ...c5 and discourage(?) it.
  
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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #32 - 07/04/11 at 17:48:37
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I wouldn't say that. My guess is this: everybody plays 2.g3 against the Dutch, so everybody thinks that 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 must be best too. The flaw in this logic is that as Black solid equality is enough while White wants more - dynamic equality at least. So lines that are perfectly acceptable as Black in the Dutch are not always as White in the Bird. This might very well be an example.

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.0-0 e6 6.d3 Be7 7.Nc3 0-0 8.e4 b6 (dxe4 9.dxe4 Qxd1 is possibly slightly better for White while 9...b6 can be answered with 10.Qe2) 9.h3 dxe4 10.dxe4 Ba6 and White has nothing. Maybe 9.Qe1 is kind of an improvement, but Ba6 still looks good enough.
When studying openings like the Bird I find unambitious but solid setups like these the most difficult.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #31 - 07/04/11 at 13:42:48
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Bump! Any comments on this?:

[quote]Not sure if this is the right thread for this -- hardly critical -- thought, but I've noticed that sources on the Polar Bear (DW, Taylor) focus almost exclusively on ...g6 lines omitting ...e6 ones. Why is this? After say 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 c5 4 Bg2 Nc6 5 0-0, 5 ...e6 is actually the most commonly played move! Play usually continues 6 d3 Be7 (I guess 6 ...Bd6 presents a target? -- maybe 7 Nc3 as in the nice rout Korchnoi-Goldberg is strongest?) 7 c3 0-0, and now 8 Qc2 is the main line, though 8 Qe1 is also common, Danielsen played 8 a4 (and 9 Na3), and 8 h3 also looks interesting. But doesn't ...e6 deserve a mention? -- it may be a bit passive-looking, but then ...g6 also invites a standard attack.

There are also some interesting move-order issues in this line. For example, after 1 f4 d5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 c5, I'd like to know the status of 4 c4!?, which is quite common.[/quote]

Why the omission of ...e6 lines, or am I looking in the wrong place(s)? Are they so bad?
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #30 - 09/17/10 at 20:23:09
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/17/10 at 04:05:02:
The ..Bg4 lines are quite good and covered in Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings. 

The critical line is the pawn sac:  1.f4 e5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e5!? 6.Qxd5 Qh4+ 7.Kd1 0-0-0


That doesn't look nice for white. But what if white plays 1.f4 d5 2.d3, has black anything better than allow white play the reversed Leningrad?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #29 - 08/29/10 at 09:43:20
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this -- hardly critical -- thought, but I've noticed that sources on the Polar Bear (DW, Taylor) focus almost exclusively on ...g6 lines omitting ...e6 ones. Why is this? After say 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 c5 4 Bg2 Nc6 5 0-0, [u]5 ...e6[/u] is actually the most commonly played move! Play usually continues 6 d3 Be7 (I guess 6 ...Bd6 presents a target? -- maybe 7 Nc3 as in the nice rout Korchnoi-Goldberg is strongest?) 7 c3 0-0, and now 8 Qc2 is the main line, though 8 Qe1 is also common, Danielsen played 8 a4 (and 9 Na3), and 8 h3 also looks interesting. But doesn't ...e6 deserve a mention? -- it may be a bit passive-looking, but then ...g6 also invites a standard attack.

There are also some interesting move-order issues in this line. For example, after 1 f4 d5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 c5, I'd like to know the status of 4 c4!?, which is quite common.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #28 - 05/17/10 at 04:05:02
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The ..Bg4 lines are quite good and covered in Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings. 

The critical line is the pawn sac:  1.f4 e5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e5!? 6.Qxd5 Qh4+ 7.Kd1 0-0-0

But 5..e6 or 5..c6 are also playable if you haven't got the guts.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #27 - 03/24/10 at 04:58:11
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Neither do all advocates of the white side always recognize Black's flex enough. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.d3 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 was an email game Flude-MNb which went rather well for me. It can be found in the Anti-Sicilian section. Maybe I will give the link tomorrow.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #26 - 03/24/10 at 01:58:30
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Quote:
TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  Against this setup, I would recommend 6...Nd7 7.a4 e5 which seems about equal. Black could also consider 7...f6 8.Na3 e5, but 8.e4 e5 9.Nc3 looks like an improvement.


 When black plays c6 isn't  Black open to  Dutch Stonewall  with colors reversed?  Isn't ...c6 saying   Nd7 with the idea of e5?   Doesn't a simple and timely d4 negate this?

    Here play can go down the Nh3 lines against the Dutch.  Although Nh3 lines against the Dutch are for the most part a good choice... I don't know how they turn out with colors reversed)   Example…. 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6!? 5.0–0  and on …c6  white plays  6.d4 then  6...Nd7  (what else? Black is committed)  then    7.c4!? (...dxc  8. Bxc4   looks good too)  0–0 and 8.Nc3.   This is just quick analysis.... so I don’t know what kind of pull the position really has (if any)  but at a quick glace it looks as white....easy to play.  slow yes...but black looks to be mired in his own pawn formation and  Black's Nh6 looks out there considering black is already a tempo down. 

Take in mind I'm trying to find good things so I'm coming from an optimistic point of view


Quote:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2. 


Taylor's  line looks ok…as someone who  played Be2 , pawns at e4 and f4 lines against the Sicilian,  The line  1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Be2 Nc6 5.0–0 d6 6.d3    looks to be satisfactory and certainly "can" lead to unique play.   Again this is another line where the colors are reversed I.e (English ...e5 lines..)

1 f4 has got some flex something people don't give it enough credit for.

  
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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #25 - 03/21/10 at 12:37:44
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I disagree with TN here. In a game Hector-Rogers Black played ...dxe4 and had an edge in the queenless middle game.
Instead I would recommend 1.f4 b6 2.Nf3 Bb7 3.g3 not fearing Bxf3 4.exf3. White has played 5.d4 but I like the queenside fianchetto better. It's probably equal, but the pair of bishops gives White something to play for.
With colours reversed I do not particularly fear 1.b3 f5 2.Bb2 Nf6 3.Bxf6 either.
  

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TN
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #24 - 03/21/10 at 11:53:34
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linksspringer wrote on 03/21/10 at 10:38:11:
MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


MNb, what would you recommend to a Polar Bear/Leningrad Bird player after 1.f4 b6 ?


2.e4 Bb7 3.d3 followed by Nf3/g3/Bg2/0-0 and White achieves an improved Polar Bear where he gains e4 in one turn and Black is committed to the not so effective ...b6 setup. If Black plays ...d5, then Nc3 is a good riposte.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #23 - 03/21/10 at 10:38:11
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MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


MNb, what would you recommend to a Polar Bear/Leningrad Bird player after 1.f4 b6 ?
  
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