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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Birds opening lines for black (Read 35932 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #37 - 07/05/11 at 18:19:22
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Indeed so. White doesn't get enough pressure for it? I'm not sure ...
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #36 - 07/05/11 at 17:45:05
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Eh?  Thereby hangs a pawn, no?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #35 - 07/05/11 at 17:36:20
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Interesting -- I hadn't looked at 7 Qe1.

I guess if White wants speed, the fastest is 7 e4!? straightaway! No idea what happens then but 7 ...0-0 8 e5 looks interesting ...
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #34 - 07/05/11 at 16:32:51
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[quote author=2F2C2620410 link=1266506459/33#33 date=1309865169]I think the 'Polar' plan of 7 c3 and 8 Na3 is more dynamically charged than 7 Nc3, which I agree seems unpromising.[/quote]
That's my guess too. I just gave the example as part of my answer to your question.
Even better might be 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.o-o e6 6.d3 Be7 7.Qe1 a la Malaniuk. It's often a good way to utilize the extra tempo.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #33 - 07/05/11 at 11:26:09
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I think the 'Polar' plan of 7 c3 and 8 Na3 is more dynamically charged than 7 Nc3, which I agree seems unpromising. I'm certainly not claiming an advantage for White, but at least with Qe1, Nc2, h3, g4 or e4 according to circumstances the Polar paws might begin to show themselves! Does the dearth of high-level games here (and the complete silence of books) imply this is (seen as) a [i]worse[/i] version for Black than if he'd played ...g6/...Bg7? Haven't a clue! Anyone?

Meanwhile the 4 c4 plan I mentioned above might be interesting -- but of course Black could play ...e6 before ...c5 and discourage(?) it.
  
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MNb
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #32 - 07/04/11 at 17:48:37
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I wouldn't say that. My guess is this: everybody plays 2.g3 against the Dutch, so everybody thinks that 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 must be best too. The flaw in this logic is that as Black solid equality is enough while White wants more - dynamic equality at least. So lines that are perfectly acceptable as Black in the Dutch are not always as White in the Bird. This might very well be an example.

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.0-0 e6 6.d3 Be7 7.Nc3 0-0 8.e4 b6 (dxe4 9.dxe4 Qxd1 is possibly slightly better for White while 9...b6 can be answered with 10.Qe2) 9.h3 dxe4 10.dxe4 Ba6 and White has nothing. Maybe 9.Qe1 is kind of an improvement, but Ba6 still looks good enough.
When studying openings like the Bird I find unambitious but solid setups like these the most difficult.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #31 - 07/04/11 at 13:42:48
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Bump! Any comments on this?:

[quote]Not sure if this is the right thread for this -- hardly critical -- thought, but I've noticed that sources on the Polar Bear (DW, Taylor) focus almost exclusively on ...g6 lines omitting ...e6 ones. Why is this? After say 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 c5 4 Bg2 Nc6 5 0-0, 5 ...e6 is actually the most commonly played move! Play usually continues 6 d3 Be7 (I guess 6 ...Bd6 presents a target? -- maybe 7 Nc3 as in the nice rout Korchnoi-Goldberg is strongest?) 7 c3 0-0, and now 8 Qc2 is the main line, though 8 Qe1 is also common, Danielsen played 8 a4 (and 9 Na3), and 8 h3 also looks interesting. But doesn't ...e6 deserve a mention? -- it may be a bit passive-looking, but then ...g6 also invites a standard attack.

There are also some interesting move-order issues in this line. For example, after 1 f4 d5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 c5, I'd like to know the status of 4 c4!?, which is quite common.[/quote]

Why the omission of ...e6 lines, or am I looking in the wrong place(s)? Are they so bad?
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #30 - 09/17/10 at 20:23:09
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/17/10 at 04:05:02:
The ..Bg4 lines are quite good and covered in Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings. 

The critical line is the pawn sac:  1.f4 e5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e5!? 6.Qxd5 Qh4+ 7.Kd1 0-0-0


That doesn't look nice for white. But what if white plays 1.f4 d5 2.d3, has black anything better than allow white play the reversed Leningrad?
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #29 - 08/29/10 at 09:43:20
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this -- hardly critical -- thought, but I've noticed that sources on the Polar Bear (DW, Taylor) focus almost exclusively on ...g6 lines omitting ...e6 ones. Why is this? After say 1 f4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 g3 c5 4 Bg2 Nc6 5 0-0, [u]5 ...e6[/u] is actually the most commonly played move! Play usually continues 6 d3 Be7 (I guess 6 ...Bd6 presents a target? -- maybe 7 Nc3 as in the nice rout Korchnoi-Goldberg is strongest?) 7 c3 0-0, and now 8 Qc2 is the main line, though 8 Qe1 is also common, Danielsen played 8 a4 (and 9 Na3), and 8 h3 also looks interesting. But doesn't ...e6 deserve a mention? -- it may be a bit passive-looking, but then ...g6 also invites a standard attack.

There are also some interesting move-order issues in this line. For example, after 1 f4 d5 2 g3 Nf6 3 Bg2 c5, I'd like to know the status of 4 c4!?, which is quite common.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #28 - 05/17/10 at 04:05:02
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The ..Bg4 lines are quite good and covered in Palliser's Beating Unusual Chess Openings. 

The critical line is the pawn sac:  1.f4 e5 2.Nf3 Bg4 3.e3 Nd7 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e5!? 6.Qxd5 Qh4+ 7.Kd1 0-0-0

But 5..e6 or 5..c6 are also playable if you haven't got the guts.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #27 - 03/24/10 at 04:58:11
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Neither do all advocates of the white side always recognize Black's flex enough. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.d3 g6 5.Be2 Bg7 was an email game Flude-MNb which went rather well for me. It can be found in the Anti-Sicilian section. Maybe I will give the link tomorrow.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #26 - 03/24/10 at 01:58:30
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Quote:
TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  Against this setup, I would recommend 6...Nd7 7.a4 e5 which seems about equal. Black could also consider 7...f6 8.Na3 e5, but 8.e4 e5 9.Nc3 looks like an improvement.


 When black plays c6 isn't  Black open to  Dutch Stonewall  with colors reversed?  Isn't ...c6 saying   Nd7 with the idea of e5?   Doesn't a simple and timely d4 negate this?

    Here play can go down the Nh3 lines against the Dutch.  Although Nh3 lines against the Dutch are for the most part a good choice... I don't know how they turn out with colors reversed)   Example…. 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6!? 5.0–0  and on …c6  white plays  6.d4 then  6...Nd7  (what else? Black is committed)  then    7.c4!? (...dxc  8. Bxc4   looks good too)  0–0 and 8.Nc3.   This is just quick analysis.... so I don’t know what kind of pull the position really has (if any)  but at a quick glace it looks as white....easy to play.  slow yes...but black looks to be mired in his own pawn formation and  Black's Nh6 looks out there considering black is already a tempo down. 

Take in mind I'm trying to find good things so I'm coming from an optimistic point of view


Quote:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2. 


Taylor's  line looks ok…as someone who  played Be2 , pawns at e4 and f4 lines against the Sicilian,  The line  1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Be2 Nc6 5.0–0 d6 6.d3    looks to be satisfactory and certainly "can" lead to unique play.   Again this is another line where the colors are reversed I.e (English ...e5 lines..)

1 f4 has got some flex something people don't give it enough credit for.

  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #25 - 03/21/10 at 12:37:44
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I disagree with TN here. In a game Hector-Rogers Black played ...dxe4 and had an edge in the queenless middle game.
Instead I would recommend 1.f4 b6 2.Nf3 Bb7 3.g3 not fearing Bxf3 4.exf3. White has played 5.d4 but I like the queenside fianchetto better. It's probably equal, but the pair of bishops gives White something to play for.
With colours reversed I do not particularly fear 1.b3 f5 2.Bb2 Nf6 3.Bxf6 either.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #24 - 03/21/10 at 11:53:34
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linksspringer wrote on 03/21/10 at 10:38:11:
MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


MNb, what would you recommend to a Polar Bear/Leningrad Bird player after 1.f4 b6 ?


2.e4 Bb7 3.d3 followed by Nf3/g3/Bg2/0-0 and White achieves an improved Polar Bear where he gains e4 in one turn and Black is committed to the not so effective ...b6 setup. If Black plays ...d5, then Nc3 is a good riposte.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #23 - 03/21/10 at 10:38:11
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MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


MNb, what would you recommend to a Polar Bear/Leningrad Bird player after 1.f4 b6 ?
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #22 - 03/20/10 at 01:41:26
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It occurred to me - to answer the request of the OP - that 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 e5 5.0-0 Ne7 6.d3 0-0 might be an interesting possibilitiy.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #21 - 03/19/10 at 23:03:08
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MNb wrote on 03/19/10 at 21:40:21:
TN wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:47:16:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.


I have always thought that 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 and 6.Nf3 was called the Big Clamp and 5.Nc3 (or later) the Closed Sicilian?! So now what do you recommend, if Black refuses to play ...d5, the Big Clamp (no Nc3) or the Closed Sicilian (White does play Nc3)?
My recommendation would be to postpone the choice as long as possible. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 (no need to invite early ...d5 stuff with 3.e4) g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0, 6.d3, 7.e4 (assuming that there is no ...d5 yet) and only depending on Black's setup eventually 8.Nc3. That looks most ambitious to me.

Concerning that early fianchetto move order, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 e5 7.e4 and 8.Nc3 is a line of the Vienna Fianchetto (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3) that has scored rather well for White.

As you may have concluded, I don't believe in BirdBrain's theory of flexibility. 1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.


You are right, by Closed Sicilian I meant 7.0-0 and only then 8.Nc3. The Closed Sicilian should lead to equality as well, but I think White has more chances of gaining a tiny edge with the Closed than the Clamp in the critical lines.

Against the Fianchetto lines, I like to play 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 c6, when 5.Nc3 d4 6.Ne4 Nf6 is equal, but 5.d3 is probably the most testing answer.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #20 - 03/19/10 at 21:40:21
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TN wrote on 03/19/10 at 20:47:16:
Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.


I have always thought that 1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.f4 and 6.Nf3 was called the Big Clamp and 5.Nc3 (or later) the Closed Sicilian?! So now what do you recommend, if Black refuses to play ...d5, the Big Clamp (no Nc3) or the Closed Sicilian (White does play Nc3)?
My recommendation would be to postpone the choice as long as possible. 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.g3 (no need to invite early ...d5 stuff with 3.e4) g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.0-0, 6.d3, 7.e4 (assuming that there is no ...d5 yet) and only depending on Black's setup eventually 8.Nc3. That looks most ambitious to me.

Concerning that early fianchetto move order, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 e5 7.e4 and 8.Nc3 is a line of the Vienna Fianchetto (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3) that has scored rather well for White.

As you may have concluded, I don't believe in BirdBrain's theory of flexibility. 1.f4 followed by a kingside fianchetto (except vs. early ...e5 stuff in the broadest sense of the word) looks most promising to me.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #19 - 03/19/10 at 20:47:16
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Paul123 wrote on 03/19/10 at 13:01:18:
[quote]

TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.


This gives White with some options

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  I've played

a4, Na3 with the idea of attacking/claiming c4 and c5  I think this set up in particular gives white space to work with his initiative.
[quote]

Against this setup, I would recommend 6...Nd7 7.a4 e5 which seems about equal. Black could also consider 7...f6 8.Na3 e5, but 8.e4 e5 9.Nc3 looks like an improvement.

Also, after 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5, the Big Clamp setup doesn't give White any advantage (according to Bird connoisseur Vigus in DW) but is still a playable line that players such as McShane have successfully used. Personally I would either transpose to a Grand Prix with 4.Nc3 or a Closed Sicilian with 4.d3 Nc6 5.g3 d6 6.Bg2.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #18 - 03/19/10 at 18:34:23
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Quote:
Probably…Maybe... If one can reach the position where  white's  pawns are on e4, f4 , c3.
then...the advantage can be had...


I often achieve this kind of structure.  I am not much worried about ...d5, honestly.  I think White still has good chances, and I am familiar with the systems with the early f4 anyways.  I recently have been playing more 1. e4, for the longest time I have wanted to be able to incorporate an early e4 in my f4 systems, but it is easier to do it the opposite way!  And White gets good chances.  I have been playing more King's Gambits now, and I enjoy the positions I get.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #17 - 03/19/10 at 13:01:18
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Quote:
TN wrote:

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.


This gives White with some options

1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3 d5 4.Be2 Nh6 5.0–0 c6 6.d3  I've played

a4, Na3 with the idea of attacking/claiming c4 and c5  I think this set up in particular gives white space to work with his initiative.
Quote:
BirdBrain
The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally. 


Probably…Maybe... If one can reach the position where  white's  pawns are on e4, f4 , c3.
then...the advantage can be had...

  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #16 - 03/10/10 at 15:31:26
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This Topic was moved here from French [move by] MilenPetrov.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #15 - 03/01/10 at 14:03:14
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No, it was me talking about a different move order, I apologize for that... 1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. b3, or 2. b3...apologies for the confusion.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #14 - 02/26/10 at 21:45:11
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Finally I don't think 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.b3 a very good idea. Ask the weakest member of your local chessclub why.


That's borderline signature worthy.

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #13 - 02/26/10 at 20:45:17
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I would like to know how exactly Black's play fits into White's plans. I also would like to know compared to which variation White has an extra tempo. What's more, I think Black is the one threatening to play some variation with an extra tempo, namely the blockading system 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 g6.

Anyhow White has scored a miserable 39% (58 games) after 1.e4 g6 2.f4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d5 4.e5 and even worse after 4...c5. Anyone who has taken a glance at that blockading system mentioned above knows how it should be done as Black.
If you are not convinced yet, 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e4 c5 is very playable for Black as well - White is not the only one with flexible play. This is a line of the GPA: 1.e4 c5 2.f4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7. Again Black has done very well after 4.c3 (4.Nc3 Nc6 is the GPA; Black has the extra option 4...a6 not fearing the Open Sicilian after 5.d4 cxd4) Nc6 when ...d5 leads to the same kind of blockading defence.
Indeed, I would hate it if you forgot about 3.e4 ... it would perfectly fit in my plans as Black.

BirdBrain wrote on 02/26/10 at 18:32:56:
And another option is 3. b3...

Finally I don't think 1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.b3 a very good idea. Ask the weakest member of your local chessclub why. If you meant 3.g3 I think that's White''s best in this position; it can lead to all kinds of transpositions, including the ...d5; ...c6; setup mentioned above.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #12 - 02/26/10 at 18:32:56
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Black should do fine after 3...d5 4. e5 c5, like you said, but White has the extra tempo on getting the Clamp, the typical pawn center that many Bird players look towards.  This spearhead allows them more space, and consequently they have good chances for developing an attack.  Of course, exd5 is a totally different type of position, but I could imagine the White bishop going to e2 or b5 in those positions.  I would hate to forget 3. e4.  And another option is 3. b3...
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #11 - 02/19/10 at 20:33:59
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BirdBrain wrote on 02/19/10 at 13:14:44:
The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally. 


I think black has a very good game after 3. ...d5 4.e5 c5 or 4.exd5 Nf6
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #10 - 02/19/10 at 13:14:44
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TN wrote on 02/18/10 at 21:17:28:
1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.

@MilenPetrov

Move the thread to Flank Openings please.


The only thing about this post is that it does not take into account 3. e4, which is a big alternative...then I guess you would play 3...c5?  Some even would play 3...d5 here, but I think that fits more into White's plans, personally. 

I have read comments about a "true" Bird, with the e3 system.  Maybe that was the original way it was played, but that doesn't mean White has to commit to that, especially if Black is going to give White e4 early.  It is the same in d4 systems...some setups are not practical for White to play an early e4, so he must prepare the position first, with f3 and such.  But in this case...Black has given it to White in his first go.  Is it beneficial to White?  I think so.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #9 - 02/18/10 at 22:22:53
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TN, what's wrong with you????  Angry

What on earth are you doing, giving white moves?   Wink
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #8 - 02/18/10 at 21:17:28
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1.f4 g6 2.Nf3 Bg7 3.e3/g3 3...d5 4.Be2/Bg2 Nh6 5.0-0 c6 is my recommendation.

@MilenPetrov

Move the thread to Flank Openings please.
  

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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #7 - 02/18/10 at 20:43:38
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Maybe we can get this moved to "Flank Openings"...but there is a lot of info on 1.f4 in that section...
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #6 - 02/18/10 at 18:33:35
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BirdBrain wrote on 02/18/10 at 15:57:26:
I don't know why this is in the French section...


Agreed.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #5 - 02/18/10 at 16:08:01
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thanks for your help on opening ideas Bird Brain.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #4 - 02/18/10 at 15:59:48
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That is a good, solid choice for Black...with ...c6, you are temporarily fighting for control of d5, which helps neutralize the king bishop at g2 (in case they play the Polar Bear).  But you won't get as aggressive of a pawn storm on the queenside as you will with ...d5/...c5 setups.  If you want the pawn storm, remember that your queen rook will probably go to b8.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #3 - 02/18/10 at 15:57:26
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I don't know why this is in the French section, but there are various ways to meet the Bird.  Plus, it depends on what kind of Bird you are talking about.  There are e3 setups, g3 setups, etc...so it depends.  The above mentioned setup is kind of a "universal" way to develop against the Bird, but it will also be a setup that most Bird players are most familiar with, and therefore they understand it very well.  So my suggestion, if you like that, try it.  If you like tactics, study a bit on From's Gambit, 1...e5!? (note - some 1. f4 players will play 2. e4, the King's Gambit, at this point, so be ready).  If you prefer the Sicilian, just play 1...c5 and develop along your normal routes.

If you want to prevent (or fight) against the early queen fianchetto, then 1...g6 is the way to go. 

To answer this question better, it is good to know what kind of setups you like to play for.  I also like some of the ...c6 lines for Black against the Bird - not as aggressive, but definitely playable.
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #2 - 02/18/10 at 15:55:24
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thanks for that. what anyybodys view on this line? for black d5 Nf6 g6 Bg7 0-0 c6 Bg4 Nbd7 a5 .
  
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Re: Birds opening lines for black
Reply #1 - 02/18/10 at 15:31:02
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Playing in the way White classically does against the Dutch, with moves such as ...d5, Nf6, g6, Bg7, 0-0, c5 and Nc6, is quite normal and good.
  
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Birds opening lines for black
02/18/10 at 15:20:58
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can anyone tell me one the best lines for Blacks vs the birds 1.f4 .
  
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