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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black to counter the London system? (Read 18679 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #28 - 08/13/10 at 21:58:48
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Thanks, I'll check that out!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #27 - 08/13/10 at 21:28:29
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/13/10 at 21:08:32:
BPaulsen, do you mind sketching out the path to equality after 4.d5?  As I said, I have absolutely no chess resources at the moment. 


Fier-Magem Badals, Barcelona 2009 is a key game. Way, way too much typing to go over the various routes Karolyi covered in his CBM article.

It's in the online www.chesslive.de database that any internet user can use.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #26 - 08/13/10 at 21:08:32
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BPaulsen, do you mind sketching out the path to equality after 4.d5?  As I said, I have absolutely no chess resources at the moment.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #25 - 08/13/10 at 20:34:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/13/10 at 15:17:24:
After 4.e3 do either Black or White have anything better than transposing to a QGA?  I'm not a QGA player so I don't know the move order intricacies here, but if I only had to learn 1 line against the QGA I might play 2...c5.


Black doesn't have anything better than transposing to the QGA after 4. e3, as the lone noteworthy attempt to side-step was shut-down convincingly by Avrukh.

White has some options (4. Nc3, 4. d5), but both are equal if black knows what he's doing.

Quote:
White can also try 4.d5, of course.  Does anyone have any insight into these lines?  I seem to remember Seirawan playing this as Black.  Please forgive me, as I'm in the process of moving and won't have my computer or any books for at least another week.


4. d5 is equal based on Tibor Karolyi's analysis in CBM, and my personal analysis confirms it. Black does need to know what he's doing, however.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #24 - 08/13/10 at 16:20:07
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I believe the usual view of 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dc 3. Nf3 c5 4. d5 is that it should lead to a slight advantage for White.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #23 - 08/13/10 at 15:17:24
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/11/10 at 10:10:58:
Btw Kotronias in the World Teams Cup played the Tarrasch defence and after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 played 2...c5 and now the main move 3.c4 e6 is the Tarrasch. After 3.Bf4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 (4.Bxb8 is not dangerous) Nd7! gives Black at least an equal position, maybe more. I remember something like that written in the WWTLS (i dont have the book now but i'll check it later). So, i think that a Tarrasch palyer can side-step the 3.Bf4 London with 2...c5!


I've always known 2...c5 was the best move for Tarrasch players in this position.  But what about other people?  Can we make 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 a "complete" response to the d-pawn specials?  I'm referring to: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4! dc!? 

After 4.e3 do either Black or White have anything better than transposing to a QGA?  I'm not a QGA player so I don't know the move order intricacies here, but if I only had to learn 1 line against the QGA I might play 2...c5. 

White can also try 4.d5, of course.  Does anyone have any insight into these lines?  I seem to remember Seirawan playing this as Black.  Please forgive me, as I'm in the process of moving and won't have my computer or any books for at least another week.
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #22 - 03/14/10 at 01:57:43
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Anonymous3 wrote on 03/13/10 at 23:49:16:
I have a question for GMEricPrie

What should White do after 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Nf6 3 c5 4 c3 Qb6 5 Qb3 c4? "Win with the London System" recommends 6 Qc2!? but the computers judge this as better for Black after  6...g6!.


The computers are too optimistic regarding Black's chances. The position is equal according to all the sources I am aware of after 6...g6, e.g. 7.b3!? (I like the idea of exchanging the advanced c4-pawn to gain some space) 7...Bf5 8.Qd1 cb3 (other moves are also decent) 9.Qb3 and while Black has no problems here, neither does White. The position is balanced with c4 on the cards in the future.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #21 - 03/13/10 at 23:49:16
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I have a question for GMEricPrie

What should White do after 1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 Nf6 3 c5 4 c3 Qb6 5 Qb3 c4? "Win with the London System" recommends 6 Qc2!? but the computers judge this as better for Black after  6...g6!.
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #20 - 03/13/10 at 11:15:41
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/12/10 at 00:13:34:
I also assume you mean 7.Bd3! and not 7.Be2?!

I think Eric is talking about this line:
1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nd2 Bf5 6.Ngf3 e6
Now 7.Bd3 would obviously just lose the bishop.
Were you thinking about 6.Ndf3 here?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #19 - 03/12/10 at 00:51:14
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At least WWTLS's authors dont think that White has any advantage after this set-up in the lines i give above. But this book is heavily critisized by Gm Prie so.... Wink

Anyway i see now that at least this is a practical way for Black to play against the London. Not man variations, more order nuances etc. Definately not the best way to play as Black but good enough for club players.

Btw 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 4.Bxd6 cxd6! 5.Qg4 Nf6! (5...Qf6 is also =) gives Black adequate comp according to a Gm-friend  Smiley
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #18 - 03/12/10 at 00:45:57
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@ Paddy,

Thanks for your reply. No excuses, really but straight after I played ...Nc6, I realised what I have done. I have read Watson's Mastering Chess Openings Vol 2 but ... I guess it is practice that actually makes the words stick in your mind and it was my first ever 1 d4 game since my return to chess.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #17 - 03/12/10 at 00:13:34
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Maybe. But as Black i would play 4...Qb6! I also assume you mean 7.Bd3! and not 7.Be2?!
I always considered this position as slightly better for White because Black has done nothing to "punish" White. Inspite of that last Sunday i saw a local London expert palying against a low-rated player who played the London against him and trusting this line for Black! After 7.Bd3 he played 7...c4 8.Bc2 b5 and managed to win. A quick investigation on my megabase reveals that this position is very rare and not a single high-rated player played like this in the past, so i assume it was an over the board inspiration or a secret analysis! Who knows? I'll ask him this Sunday. Putting the engine on and asking my megabase i see that the most critical may be 7...Nh5 but cannot White avoid that by playing 7.h3? I assume that now 7...O-O is OK because there is no Ne5-Qf3-Qh3 manouvre. After 8.Bd3 Malakhov played the plan with 8...c4 9.Bc2 b5 so all these indeed look interesting! Maybe i'll subscribe after all.

With a single word mr Prie: do you think that this c5-d5-e6-Nf6-Nc6-Be7 system is a respectable line for Black?
  
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Paddy
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #16 - 03/11/10 at 23:53:25
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GabrielGale wrote on 03/11/10 at 01:14:50:
Last night, my second OTB game for the year (90'(40) +30 (finish)), my opponent (white) played the London (?): 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Bf4 Nf6 Nd2 ......

Similar to Holbox, I have been learning the Tarrasch as my main reply to 1 d4. So, I was making all these up as I went along but I got myself into a tangle (I think mainly my Knights). Sigh! I wish I had a look at GM Prie's guides from ChessPub but there is only so much you can do in limited time.

I am also using Aagaard and Lund as my main book on Tarrasch but unlike Holbox, I have not even got to the last chapters yet and therefore did not know of 3...Bd6

I also did not know of TN's 3...c5 idea.

I played 3...Nc6 (?!)

(cut)


You played 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Bf4 Nc6?

If so, you might find it helpful to read a book on general opening principles, rather than a specialised manual.

Rule of thumb: as Black, after 1 d4 d5, do not block your c-pawn with your knight unless you have some very specific idea in mind.

The reason is that if White is able to advance his c-pawn and Black is not, then it is as if Black is fighting with one hand tied behind his back.

Furthermore at some stage after developing the minor pieces Black is going to need an open or semi-open file for his rooks. That will generally require a pawn break. After 1 d4 d5, the pawn break ...e5 is hard to execute except as a gambit; in contrast, ...c5 is much easier to support.

[There are defences that break this rule, such as the Chigorin (1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nc6) but they are controversial and very much the exception.]

The whole classical theory of the Queen's Gambit theory is constructed on trying to prevent or discourage Black from playing ...c5.

Modern theory is less dogmatic and more concrete, and we keep finding more and more exceptions to the old classical rules, but nevertheless it is probably better for most inexperienced players to start with the rules rather than the exceptions.
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #15 - 03/11/10 at 23:25:18
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We are already a lot further in this section Cool

6.Qb3 is wrong, White should play 6.Nf3 e6 (6...Qb6 7.dxc5 Qxb2 8.Nd4) 7.Be2 Be7 (7...Qb6 8.Nh4) 8.0-0
where interesting things start.
In any case Black must find better than 8...h6 9.dxc5! Bxc5 10.Nd4 (Prie-Flear) or 8...0-0 9.Nh4...
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #14 - 03/11/10 at 21:59:30
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After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3/4.e3 Black can also play cxd4. This again leads to either the Caro-Kann Exchange in an innocent form (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.exd5 cxd5 4.Nf3 is not as good as 4.Bd3) or the Slav Exchange.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #13 - 03/11/10 at 10:10:58
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Btw Kotronias in the World Teams Cup played the Tarrasch defence and after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 played 2...c5 and now the main move 3.c4 e6 is the Tarrasch. After 3.Bf4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 (4.Bxb8 is not dangerous) Nd7! gives Black at least an equal position, maybe more. I remember something like that written in the WWTLS (i dont have the book now but i'll check it later). So, i think that a Tarrasch palyer can side-step the 3.Bf4 London with 2...c5!
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #12 - 03/11/10 at 09:59:39
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Ah, something else. I also study the Tarrash and it seems that to get the Tarrash you have to play the 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 move order (unless you want to play the semi-Tarrasch, an opening i had studied in depth several years back and i still trust it). So, Aagaard's and Lund's suggestion 3.Bf4 Bd6 is logical. The only problem is that White can play a la WWTLS with 2.Bf4 e6 3.e3 Bd6 4.Bxd6! and 5.Qg4. Does anyone know if this is proven as equal for Black? I tend to agree with the authors of WWTLS that White has something here.

So, i wonder if 2...c5 is a better choice. After all 2.Bf4 c3 3.e3 cxd4 is a Caro Kann (harmless i dare to say) and 3.c3 cxd4 is a Slav exchange (more harmless!) or try to get the lines i posted above starting with 3...Nc6
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #11 - 03/11/10 at 08:42:54
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No, i'm not a subscriber in this section at present but i'm thinking seriouslly to be not only for the analysis in the London system.

This is why i may not know the answer to the obvious question: How on earth can White get anything against this line: 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6! Now it seems that the most accurate way to play for both sides is: 6.Qb3 c4 7.Qc2 Bf5 8.Qc1 and now a GM-friend said that 8...Nh5! is best and the simplest.

Yes, i know, there is also the 2.Bf4 move order but
1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nd2 Bf5 6.Qb3 Qd7 was given by both Rizzitano and WWTLS as the main line based on the same game while evaluated as equal by the first and as += by the second! Practice hasn't proved that White has an advantage here.

7. Ngf3 c4 8. Qd1 b5 (8... e6 9. Nh4 Bd6 also i remember it to be nice for Black) as Atalik-Smeets, 2007, if a remember correctly, is not a problem for Black, maybe only for White!

The only thing that remains is an interesting attempt i saw in a Stefanova's game which went 7. dxc5
e5 8. Bg3 Bxc5 9. Ngf3 Bd6 10. Bb5
and White had some pressure with c4-Rc1 etc. I suspect this is also equal (engines tend to prefer Black slightly) but i haven't analysed it seriously yet.

I really would like to know if GM Prie has some nice solution to offer here and if he has i will consider more seriously subscribing also in this section.
  
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GabrielGale
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #10 - 03/11/10 at 01:14:50
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Last night, my second OTB game for the year (90'(40) +30 (finish)), my opponent (white) played the London (?): 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Bf4 Nf6 Nd2 ......

Similar to Holbox, I have been learning the Tarrasch as my main reply to 1 d4. So, I was making all these up as I went along but I got myself into a tangle (I think mainly my Knights). Sigh! I wish I had a look at GM Prie's guides from ChessPub but there is only so much you can do in limited time.

I am also using Aagaard and Lund as my main book on Tarrasch but unlike Holbox, I have not even got to the last chapters yet and therefore did not know of 3...Bd6

I also did not know of TN's 3...c5 idea.

I played 3...Nc6 (?!)

My opponent had a set up with d4, Nf3, Nd2, e3, c3, Bd3, O-O, is this par for course in a London (?) Yes, I will check the books as well ...

[edit]
I was just checking out ChessPub subs materials and looking at the pdf Guides (I am using the 16th July 2009 version) I don't have a chess player at work PC (not allowed!!) so cannot use the e-bbok), and I am a bit confused. Does GM Prie discuss Aagaard and Lund's repertoire suggestion which is 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 e6 3 Bf4 Bd6! (A&L's annotation)?

GM Prie discusses London  1 d4 d5 2 Bf4 c5 with 2...Nf6 var but no ...e6 var (altho' he gives 2...Nf6 3 e3 e6 var)? and 1...d5 without ...e6.

Can someone clarify? Much appreciated.

[further edit]
Found it in the page on the London System-Anti-Nimzo as var 4...Bd6. GM Prie prefers 4...c5 (?)
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #9 - 03/08/10 at 13:05:34
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I did my first try to play the Tarrasch OTB yesterday.
This thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1258876312
is guilty to make me fall in the temptation.

The game started:

1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 e6 3.Bf4  Angry  No Tarrasch today.

I played the line recomended by Aagaard in Meeting 1.d4 with 3...Bd6 and I had to meet, of course, an answer not included in the book: 4.Qd2

I think that 3...Bd6 is easy to play and simpler than other systems.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #8 - 02/21/10 at 19:46:06
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GMEricPrie wrote on 02/21/10 at 16:58:59:
The best way to know about eveything on the London system, for both sides...is to subscribe!


I'll second that, since GM Prie has been using the updates to contruct what amounts to a thorough, deep and important study of this system and other 1.d4 deviations.
  

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GMEricPrie
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #7 - 02/21/10 at 16:58:59
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The best way to know about eveything on the London system, for both sides...is to subscribe!

Clearly none of the people here or on the 5.Ne5 thread did.

Otherwise they would have seen the refutation of this move as well as realized that what they suggest for a Nimzo player (a dozen of commented games in the section; mostly mine...) is just White's dream!
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #6 - 02/19/10 at 04:54:04
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MNb wrote on 02/19/10 at 02:05:23:
For a NID-player 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 and 3.dxc5 might be unwelcome.
Besides 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3 Be7 there is also 4...b6. Black has done pretty well.

If you want something more original you can head for a Dutch with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7; 5...Ne4; and 6...f5.


I don't see how 3.dc5 is a problem for Black after 3...e6, when Black will regain the c5-pawn and play ...d5 with a very comfortable position. 3.d5 is definitely critical, but Black can play 3...e6 when 4.c4 can be met by 4...b5, leading to the Blumenfeld Gambit, and 4.Nc3 b5!? is a very interesting gambit given in 'Dangerous Weapons'. There is always 3...b5 as well, of course.

I'm not convinced by 4...b6 due to 5.Nc3! cd4 6.Nb5 Nd5 7.Qd4, which is rather unpleasant for Black. And after 4...Qb6, the rare 5.Na3 is problematic for Black, e.g. 5...cd4 6.Nb5 Na6 7.ed4.

I quite like your idea of the Dutch if White plays 5.h3, but after 5.Nbd2, 5...Ne4 is inferior due to 6.Ne4 Be4 7.Nd2 Bb7 8.e4 with an edge for White. However, 5...Be7 6.h3 c5 7.Nbd2 0-0 8.Bd3 Ba6!? is an interesting plan that Karpov has used to score some good wins.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #5 - 02/19/10 at 02:05:23
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For a NID-player 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.d5 and 3.dxc5 might be unwelcome.
Besides 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.c3 Be7 there is also 4...b6. Black has done pretty well.

If you want something more original you can head for a Dutch with 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 b6 4.e3 Bb7; 5...Ne4; and 6...f5.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #4 - 02/19/10 at 00:43:44
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Thanks for your help Tn i will try that idea next game had a lot of trouble with the london systemlast few games.
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #3 - 02/18/10 at 20:54:49
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Are you referring to a 2.Bf4 London or a 2.Nf3, 3.Bf4 London?

Against the latter, 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5 and 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 d6 and against all moves other than 5.h3, 5...Nh5 is strong and effective. After 5.h3 0-0, any c4 ideas by White are well met by ...Nbd7/...c6/...a6/...b5, and if White stops this with a4, then ...a5 secures full equality. If White avoids c4, then switching to an ...e5 break usually is effective. Just remember not to play ...d5 and ...c6 since then the h2-bishop will suddenly become very well placed.

Edit: I recommend 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Be7. You can consider 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 if you play 1...d5 as well as Black, or if you are 99% sure your opponent will play the London. Even then, 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 d5 is a more practical option if you don't usually play 1...d5.
  

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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #2 - 02/18/10 at 17:04:47
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I play the  Nimzo indian at the moment .
  
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Re: Black to counter the London system?
Reply #1 - 02/18/10 at 16:59:58
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What do you play against 1. d4 and 2. c4, because that influences your response.
  
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Black to counter the London system?
02/18/10 at 16:12:49
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what the best way for black to play against the London system?
  
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