Latest Updates:
Poll
Poll Question: Can you beat a computer in a Q v R ending?
bars   pie

Yes    
  12 (16.9%)
Probably    
  27 (38.0%)
No    
  32 (45.1%)




Total votes: 71
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 03/04/10 at 14:15:53 »
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen? (Read 29027 times)
H-HH
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 91
Location: Brasil
Joined: 03/18/06
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #14 - 05/27/10 at 12:31:52
Post Tools
Chessbase just put a complete database about this ending: http://chessbase.com/cbm/cbm135e/cbm135-12/QvR.cbv
  

French defence forever, Fide 2035.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TicklyTim
Senior Member
****
Offline


can I take that back,
please...

Posts: 274
Location: England
Joined: 05/29/09
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #13 - 04/20/10 at 15:58:18
Post Tools
On a book website - I recently noticed a 152pp book solely on this ending - by A Crosskill.
The number of pages seemed quite a lot!
I wonder how interesting the book is made?!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Tripler64
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/10/09
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #12 - 04/20/10 at 13:38:26
Post Tools
Since a strong computer program will play the optimum moves in Q v R it'll be very hard to break down - as Browne discovered. To err is human, however, and a perfect defence is very difficult to play. There was a game Morozevich-Jakovenko (relatively) recently where
Morozevich (with the Q) fell into a stalemating trick. Maybe he was in time trouble, I don't know - but if someone that strong can mess it up, it doesn't bode well for the rest of us. Fortunately this ending is very rare; I've had it twice, drawing with the Q (in the last five minutes of a seven hour session you start to hallucinate slightly) and drawing with the R (stalemate!) Of course, the results should be the other way round.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Papageno
Senior Member
****
Offline


FM

Posts: 299
Location: Germany
Joined: 06/12/08
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #11 - 03/27/10 at 15:42:54
Post Tools
Bowen wrote on 03/05/10 at 20:19:37:
Best explanation I have seen is by Averbach in his classic tome!

Sorry to disagree with you on this subject. While Averbach has good explanations in general, his choice of examples on KQkr looks not very helpful.

I found a far better coverage in Karsten Müller/Frank Lamprecht's Fundamental Chess Endings. They just give three very fundamental and useful positions for the winning side: 1) defending king in the corner, Philidor 1777 2)second rank defense, 3) third rank defense. (Maybe someone else, perhaps John Nunn, has described this approach before.) In any case, it's far better than Averbach.

After understanding how to break the third rank defense I was able to beat the tablebase – I played the KQkr-bot on ICC – for the first time. Smiley
« Last Edit: 03/27/10 at 19:16:12 by Papageno »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel-Yell
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 34
Location: Finland
Joined: 03/07/09
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #10 - 03/25/10 at 12:24:19
Post Tools
Dink Heckler wrote on 03/24/10 at 11:07:25:
This one cropped up in Karjakin - Grischuk, Amber blindfold, just the other day...Grischuk showed he can do it with his eyes closed   Cheesy

Yeah against a human.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 782
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #9 - 03/24/10 at 11:07:25
Post Tools
This one cropped up in Karjakin - Grischuk, Amber blindfold, just the other day...Grischuk showed he can do it with his eyes closed   Cheesy
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1547
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #8 - 03/23/10 at 01:20:08
Post Tools
What Dink said. I'd expect to win against a opponent of equal strength - not if I were Svidler and my opponent was Gelfand, obviously (or was it Jakovenko?), but at my own level I would expect some kind of blunder it if was me with the rook, so I dare say the same goes for my opponent. Against a computer - more or less no chance.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #7 - 03/22/10 at 08:52:06
Post Tools
It's a very complicated ending imo, esp. if you are playing against a computer. For anyone interested we have had another discussion on this topic a while ago:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1169460280

A rather useful link was given in that thread, namely:
http://www.angelfire.com/games4/lifemasteraj/endgames/special_e-g_article.html
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #6 - 03/20/10 at 06:34:00
Post Tools
Fromper wrote on 03/20/10 at 06:16:23:
One of these days, I need to really learn this endgame. I've read about it in a couple of books, but I haven't worked on it enough to feel even remotely comfortable playing it in a game.


Fortunately, the endgame doesn't crop up often in practical play, like for bishop + knight vs. king. The key is to force the opponent back with the queen and king working together, then play a waiting move that forces Black to retreat due to various rook moves losing the rook. Then you can eventually achieve zugzwang whilst avoiding the various stalemate tricks once the opponent's king is on the back rank. Easier said than done, but with some practice you'll be able to win with the Queen.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 372
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #5 - 03/20/10 at 06:16:23
Post Tools
One of these days, I need to really learn this endgame. I've read about it in a couple of books, but I haven't worked on it enough to feel even remotely comfortable playing it in a game.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bowen
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 147
Joined: 07/01/09
Re: Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
Reply #4 - 03/05/10 at 20:19:37
Post Tools
Best explanation I have seen is by Averbach in his classic tome!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chk
God Member
*****
Offline


a pawn is a pawn

Posts: 1063
Location: Athens
Joined: 10/26/06
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against an alone rook with your queen?
Reply #3 - 03/04/10 at 10:10:41
Post Tools
Yes, Belle was the first to show to humans the '3rd rank defence', a particularly difficult nut to crack if you face it for the first time..
  

"I play honestly and I play to win. If I lose, I take my medicine." - Bobby
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel-Yell
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 34
Location: Finland
Joined: 03/07/09
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against an alone rook with your queen?
Reply #2 - 03/03/10 at 22:07:52
Post Tools
Interesting exhibition in 1977 with  Belle. From Wikipedia:

"Most grandmasters declined to play against the computer in the queen versus rook endgame, but Walter Browne accepted the challenge. A queen versus rook position was set up in which the queen can win in thirty moves, with perfect play. Browne was allowed 2½ hours to play fifty moves. After forty-five moves, Browne agreed to a draw, being unable to force checkmate or win the rook within the next five moves.... Browne studied the endgame, and played the computer again a week later in a different position in which the queen can win in thirty moves. This time, he captured the rook on the fiftieth move, giving him a winning position."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dink Heckler
God Member
*****
Offline


Love-Forty

Posts: 782
Joined: 02/01/07
Gender: Male
Re: Can you win against an alone rook with your queen?
Reply #1 - 03/02/10 at 12:36:52
Post Tools
Against a player of similar ability, almost certainly. Against a tablebase, almost certainly not.
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel-Yell
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 34
Location: Finland
Joined: 03/07/09
Gender: Male
Can you win against a lone Rook with your Queen?
03/01/10 at 18:26:07
Post Tools
I am interested to know how many can actually pull this off. And the position is of course the hardest to win.

Edited:
Moderator's Note:  Edited the title slightly.

S_F March 3, 2010
« Last Edit: 03/04/10 at 14:15:25 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo