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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts! (Read 8144 times)
Stigma
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #19 - 03/11/10 at 05:21:35
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Yes, historical accuracy standards for documentaries have dropped in the last few years! 

We saw the same disturbing trend in Apocalypto, Inglourious Basterds and Forrest Gump.
  

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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #18 - 03/11/10 at 03:51:14
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I saw an interesting documentary last night on the Einsatz group in Norway.

It was called Dead Snow

Smiley
  
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #17 - 03/11/10 at 03:30:50
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/09/10 at 22:42:00:
Yes, the Japanese were worse than the Germans.

Really? Chances to survive a Japanese camp were considerably higher than chances to survive a German camp, the exception being the camps for western POW's. Concerning the examples you gave, there is an abundance of German equivalence, especially in Eastern Europe and the Balkan. Just google on Einsatzgruppe.
Not that I mean to detract anything from Japanese cruelty.

Sorry for being off topic.
  

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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #16 - 03/10/10 at 14:18:42
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You're right, there's no "right."
  

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Stigma
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #15 - 03/10/10 at 03:11:53
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I still think Basteds is  psychologically believable and has a moral message of sorts, even if a pessimistic one. I agree the story isn't exactly pure realism, but like the witty dialogue, the suspense and the graphic violence that is expected from Tarantino.

En passant I recently saw Hitchcock's "Vertigo" for the first time and the plot holes there really prevented me from enjoying it; I would say it's overrated. Maybe the difference is I knew from the start Basterds was a) Tarantino and b) counterfactual history, so I was more prepared to accept some logical flaws there. I understand that you were not, so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. There's really no way to decide who is "right" on this.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #14 - 03/10/10 at 02:15:42
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There's nothing realistic about Basterds; it's a freaking fairy tale from start to finish.  For just one little thing, a team of American commandos wouldn't have lasted 10 days in occupied France; that's why we didn't send any in there.  For another, the Army would never have preferred Jews for such an assignment.  But it's all just Tarantino's fantasy, so these details are only the start of how ridiculous the story is, if taken as a possible history.  The question is, what justifies it?  While I enjoyed the witty dialogue and the extreme suspense in many of the scenes, I came away with a negative judgment of it.

As for Letters from Iwo Jima, if you look at it discerningly and with some understanding of current Japanese politics (not that I have any deep understanding of that, but I have some), it really does seem to pander to modern Japanese excuse-making and denial about their country's history.  It's rather as if Eastwood wanted to make sure that it would sell in Japan, something that I rather suspect was behind many of the decisions that went into it.  

I'm no big expert on the Pacific island campaigns, but it's my understanding that the Japanese island defenders routinely tortured and mutilated the Americans they captured.  The memoire I'm reading recounts bizarre mutilations of American corpses on Peleliu, which is suggestive of how live prisoners would have been or perhaps were treated.  Perhaps there was the odd incident where something of the same was done by Americans, but in general, I don't think our people did this sort of thing, nor in general did the British or the Germans.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #13 - 03/10/10 at 01:49:12
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/09/10 at 22:42:00:

There is a scene where the heroine of the movie threatens an innocent "friend" of hers with death, physically beats him up, to get him to develop her film strip in his lab. It's violent and pointlessly so...now keep in mind I LIKED the first three Saw movies and even Pasolini's 120 days of Sodom. That scene however, offended the %$#@ out of me. 

That a character would torture and perhaps kill someone else to develop a film (when doing so would involve the innocent in a crime that would get him excecuted or deported to a death camp) merely for a coup de grace to top a revenge plot on Nazis - acting as a Nazi while doing it - strikes me as internally inconsistent.


The prey becomes the hunter; quite plausible psychologically I think. Revenge and feeling threatened are very powerful motivators, also used by Hitler to rally his people for one more war.

Without that scene you mention Shosanna could have been a typical, morally flawless movie heroine. But Tarantino didn't want that; it wouldn't feel real...

For once I'm moved to quote scripture:

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" could be the motto of the film as I interpret it.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Oscar Season 2010 Warning: Spoiler alerts!
Reply #12 - 03/09/10 at 22:42:00
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Markovich, I agree with you on Basterds. However, I reached the same conclusion for a different reason. Issues of political correctness aside, a film needs to be internally consistent. The only thing consistent is that everyone is evil. Except maybe for the Brit that gets killed in the bar.

There is a scene where the heroine of the movie threatens an innocent "friend" of hers with death, physically beats him up, to get him to develop her film strip in his lab. It's violent and pointlessly so...now keep in mind I LIKED the first three Saw movies and even Pasolini's 120 days of Sodom. That scene however, offended the %$#@ out of me. 

That a character would torture and perhaps kill someone else to develop a film (when doing so would involve the innocent in a crime that would get him excecuted or deported to a death camp) merely for a coup de grace to top a revenge plot on Nazis - acting as a Nazi while doing it - strikes me as internally inconsistent.

Having said that, I disagree with you about Flags of Our Fathers. Yes, the Japanese were worse than the Germans (experiments on Chinese, rape of Nanking, war crimes in Thailand, Filipina sex slaves) but those didn't take place on Iwo Jima. So the film was internally consistent.
  

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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #11 - 03/09/10 at 21:25:56
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Stigma wrote on 03/09/10 at 20:48:03:
Markovich wrote on 03/09/10 at 20:05:16:

I don't know what to make of a movie where the entire Nazi hierarchy gets killed before D-Day.  However I did think that Tarantino directed several amazing scenes where his characters are engaged in lengthy, seemingly ordinary conversation and yet the situation is fraught with extreme suspense that ratchets up as the conversation progresses.

Obviously it's counterfactual history, and we have to allow Tarantino that liberty to fully appreciate the movie.

For me the the cruelty and callousness shown by both the Basterds and the Nazis echoed the fundamental insights of social psychology: the power of situation over person. We don't have too look deeply into "german character" or define the Nazis as somehow subhuman to explain the Holocaust; all human beings are capable of unspeakable cruelty if the situation is bad enough. (And before anyone bites: This is in no way an excuse for genocide. It is possible to morally condemn something and try to understand it at the same time.)


One of the things I found disturbing about the movie was the self-justifying hatred directed at everyone in a German uniform.  In some ways I fail to see a difference between this and the hatred that so many Germans, and others at that time, directed toward the Jews.

I've been reading an interesting memoire, With the Old Breed, of the war in the Pacific as waged by one young U.S. Marine who went through the terrible fighting on Peleliu and Okinawa.  The author very frankly addresses the deep hatred that he and his comrades felt for the Japanese, and what seems to have been an equal and in some ways even more virulent Japanese hatred of Americans.  I can understand how this would come about when war is waged hand-to-hand and to the death, as it was in the Pacific island fighting.  It's more difficult to understand why it would be celebrated, even reveled in, in a fairy tale of a war movie.

Relatedly, when I watched Letters from Iwo Jima, which was Clint Eastwood's look at the Japanese side of the fight that he treated from the American side in Flags of Our Fathers, I was pretty well put off by what I perceived to be an overly sympathetic treatment of Japanese militarism, to the point of almost seeming to justify the Japanese war effort and the conduct of their troops in the Pacific.  For all their good fighting qualities and loyalty to their cause, they consistently behaved with extreme barbarity.
  

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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #10 - 03/09/10 at 20:55:16
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Stigma wrote on 03/09/10 at 02:15:50:
I've only seen three of the best picture nominees. but of those I thought Inglourious Basterds was better than both A Serious Man and Avatar, though all three were certainly worth the ticket.

A bit surprised the Basterds only got one award, but again I haven't really seen most of the competition.


Oh, you mean the terrorist film ?  Wink
  

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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #9 - 03/09/10 at 20:48:03
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Markovich wrote on 03/09/10 at 20:05:16:

I don't know what to make of a movie where the entire Nazi hierarchy gets killed before D-Day.  However I did think that Tarantino directed several amazing scenes where his characters are engaged in lengthy, seemingly ordinary conversation and yet the situation is fraught with extreme suspense that ratchets up as the conversation progresses.

Obviously it's counterfactual history, and we have to allow Tarantino that liberty to fully appreciate the movie.

For me the the cruelty and callousness shown by both the Basterds and the Nazis echoed the fundamental insights of social psychology: the power of situation over person. We don't have to look deeply into "german character" or define the Nazis as somehow subhuman to explain the Holocaust; all human beings are capable of unspeakable cruelty if the situation is bad enough. (And before anyone bites: This is in no way an excuse for genocide. It is possible to morally condemn something and try to understand it at the same time.)

That message is very scary, but it also affirms our common humanity, with all our failings.
« Last Edit: 03/09/10 at 23:45:40 by Stigma »  

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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #8 - 03/09/10 at 20:05:16
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Stigma wrote on 03/09/10 at 02:15:50:
I've only seen three of the best picture nominees. but of those I thought Inglourious Basterds was better than both A Serious Man and Avatar, though all three were certainly worth the ticket.

A bit surprised the Basterds only got one award, but again I haven't really seen most of the competition.


I don't know what to make of a movie where the entire Nazi hierarchy gets killed before D-Day.  However I did think that Tarantino directed several amazing scenes where his characters are engaged in lengthy, seemingly ordinary conversation and yet the situation is fraught with extreme suspense that ratchets up as the conversation progresses.
  

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Stigma
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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #7 - 03/09/10 at 02:15:50
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I've only seen three of the best picture nominees. but of those I thought Inglourious Basterds was better than both A Serious Man and Avatar, though all three were certainly worth the ticket.

A bit surprised the Basterds only got one award, but again I haven't really seen most of the competition.
  

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MNb
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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #6 - 03/09/10 at 01:54:41
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Wow, than you probably never have seen a movie by Liliane Cavani or Lena Wertmüller, to name two females who should have won Oscars about 35 years ago. But of course I am an European chauvinist pig. It has been a long time - possibly even until before I was born - that an Oscar was a recommendation for me.
  

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Re: Oscar Season, 2010!
Reply #5 - 03/09/10 at 01:25:26
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I read up on the Oscars at Rotten Tomatoes before it began.  It's kinda depressing that the Oscars are so predictable that RT got just about everything right.

I'm glad Hurt Locker won, but I still can't recommend it to anyone.  It's too depressing and brutal.  (And not in the same way Apocalypse Now was.)
  
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