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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Refutation of the Ryder Gambit (Read 61397 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #33 - 04/22/10 at 09:19:20
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I think the problem is that the Ryder Gambit doesn't look like it can be revived (at least theoretically speaking) for White.  5...Qxd4 6.Be3 Qg4 7.Qf2 e5 is probably =+ while 6...Qh4+ 7.g3 Qb4 is probably more. 

In many gambit lines the sacrifice of one or more additional pawns, while riskier, offers the gambiteer more dangerous compensation- such as the Poisoned Pawn with 10.e5 or the Goring Gambit with 5.Bc4.  But I don't think the Ryder Gambit manages this- if anything White seems to have more chances of a quick victory in the lines following 5.Nxf3.  In addition, it's toothless in a way because Black can ignore the pawn on d4 and steer the game into channels where the queen would be best placed elsewhere and the king's knight would be best on f3.  For instance 5...Nc6 6.Bb5 (6.d5 Nd4 -/+, while otherwise Black threatens 6...Nxd4 winning the pawn under better circumstances) 6...Bd7 7.Nge2 e5 8.dxe5 Nxe5 9.Bxd7+ Nfxd7 and although White has some chances with Qg3, Be3/Bf4 and 0-0-0, I would assess this line as a fairly comfortable =+ for Black.  Or 5...c6 6.Bd3 Bg4 7.Qf2 e6 may also be better for Black than any of the 5.Nxf3 lines.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #32 - 04/22/10 at 00:22:49
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Could we get back to chess and stop discussing Lev?  It really is not what this forum is for.  I just deleted a post of his that was mainly chest-puffing, and by the same token, we here should leave off provoking him or criticizing him and just talk about the chess of the thing.  If you want to talk about Lev per se, do it in Chit Chat or perhaps general chess.  But really what is the point, since Lev is merely annoying, not important.

If you want to talk about d-pawn specials, do it here.
  

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MNb
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #31 - 04/19/10 at 23:48:12
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Markovich wrote on 04/19/10 at 16:57:47:
But I don't think it's entirely fair to LDZ to say that has provided no analysis.  He sometimes does provide analysis.


Yes and moreover it's quality is quite decent. But never on BDG-lines that may lead to an advantage for Black, like 5...c6 and Craig Evans' line vs. his 0-0 gambit in the Euwe defence. And I find that typical.

Imo there is also a difference between taking a calculated risk in a game once in a while - after all Beljavsky dared to play the Traxler against no one less than Karpov and got away with it - and taking that approach as the fundament of your regular opening repertoire. After all I have played the Ryder Gambit for two years. Of course I had my work done in Black's best lines so I usually got good positions out of the opening. The few cases that I didn't made me drop it. Same with Albin's.

You see? That's why I am so interested in rehabilitating the Danish/Göring and Morra. If one day I get back to OTB-chess I might take them up again, but only if am convinced that they are good enough for equality (and it rather should be a dynamic equality).
  

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Markovich
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #30 - 04/19/10 at 16:57:47
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MNb wrote on 04/19/10 at 01:52:48:
And typically LDZ has provided zero analysis to show that White has sufficient compensation in the BDG, many requests notwithstanding. He only blabbers about "psychology", "computers" and in the past about another infamous c-word. Neither is he interested in Black's best moves, again unlike ArkHein and Sevenviolets. That's my reason to write he plays hope chess.


If someone isn't interested in the Search for Truth in chess, fine, that's his loss.  But to talk as if he is interested and yet perpetually slide into "this succeeds in practice" is shapeshifting, it seems to me.

But I don't think it's entirely fair to LDZ to say that has provided no analysis.  He sometimes does provide analysis.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #29 - 04/19/10 at 12:11:11
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I can see your point regarding LDZ and "hope chess" now- particularly re. the attitude of insisting that an opening line is objectively good and being uninterested in best play from the opponent.

There is an interesting grey area here.  I mentioned the line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4 and 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7, both of which are in a similar theoretical state- Black is doing alright except against one critical line which probably leads to +/-, but which White very rarely finds in OTB games.   I initially took up those lines some years ago thinking that Black had a viable position in all lines, but after the critical lines became established, was unable to repair them convincingly for Black.

Would continuing to play either of those lines with Black, on the grounds that an opponent is very unlikely to both find the critical line and play it accurately through to its conclusion, constitute "hope chess"?  It's certainly a risk, but it's a calculated risk based on the premise that in a large majority of games Black won't come out of the opening with a significantly worse position, in contrast to the Ryder Gambit where White probably ends up worse out of the opening in most games and relies upon Black misplaying the middlegame.

I must say, though, that with just the above two exceptions, I generally stick only to gambit lines that I consider reasonably sound in all lines- I take the same approach to the BDG as ArKheiN for example.
  
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MNb
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #28 - 04/19/10 at 01:52:48
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Frankly I don't see any difference between "playuing a dubious opening in the hope of achieving a specific trap" (and JDKnight should have added: "which leads to an inferior position if the opponent avoids that trap") and "playing a dubious system on the grounds that it's easy for the opponent to go wrong" (and JDKnight should have added: "which leads to an inferior position if the opponent plays good moves.")

I am all for setting traps. But if the opponent avoids them I still want to have at least an equal position. Playing an opening (especially as White) that leads to an inferior position if the opponents play the best moves is hope chess. The Ryder Gambit is one example.
It's something completely different if one studies an opening with a dubious reputation and one tries to prove it playable by finding improvements in critical lines.

Regarding the BDG with 5.Nxf3 I would say that White has problems proving sufficient compensation in a couple of lines, just like the Morra Gambit. At the other hand a clear route to an indispute advantage for Black is not known either yet, again just like the Morra Gambit. The way ArkHein and Sevenviolets (Patrik Shoupal) play the BDG is certainly not hope chess. They are convinced and willing to show that white has enough.

As much as LDZ I love playing gambits. But I only play the ones I think correct. And typically LDZ has provided zero analysis to show that White has sufficient compensation in the BDG, many requests notwithstanding. He only blabbers about "psychology", "computers" and in the past about another infamous c-word. Neither is he interested in Black's best moves, again unlike ArkHein and Sevenviolets. That's my reason to write he plays hope chess.
  

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SWJediknight
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #27 - 04/19/10 at 00:33:01
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I agree with ChevyBanginStyle here.  Personally I always interpreted "hope chess" as referring primarily to thought processes along the lines "I go here, I go there" with little or no consideration of the opponent's intervening moves. 

I think playing a dubious opening purely in the hope of achieving a specific trap might be delving into "hope chess" territory, but that's not the same as playing a dubious opening system partly on the grounds that it's easy for the opponent to go wrong.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #26 - 04/18/10 at 21:43:31
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I don't care about Heisman. What I care about is winning with my chess style... and I do!
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #25 - 04/18/10 at 21:42:38
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MNb wrote on 04/18/10 at 20:40:33:
Gambit wrote on 04/18/10 at 17:20:59:
Madness, no. Psychology in chess, yes.

Hope chess (ie playing inferior moves assuming that the opponent will not find the best replies), yes.

Read Heisman's columns on Chesscafe. Gambit's "psychology" perfectly fits in Heisman's definition of hope chess.


I tend to associate "hope chess" with beginner's play centered around one simplistic idea that can easily be rebuffed. The line begins to blur when you consider marginal openings. For instance, is the BDG hope chess? Lev Gutman suggested ideas that offer White long-term compensation in the 5...c6 line which is considered by many to be one of Black's most respectable defenses. Even if an opening is objectively unsound, the reasons may not be entirely obvious and the possibilities for interesting play manifold. There are grandmasters who sometimes deliberately play openings of inferior quality in Swiss events to create complications or trip up their opponents. Are they playing "hope chess"? There is a "poker bluff" aspect to play like this that is much more sophisticated than a common beginner's mistake. Chess is a game after all and even a chess "logician" must appreciate these aspects of the game to become a strong practical player.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #24 - 04/18/10 at 20:40:33
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Gambit wrote on 04/18/10 at 17:20:59:
Madness, no. Psychology in chess, yes.

Hope chess (ie playing inferior moves assuming that the opponent will not find the best replies), yes.

Read Heisman's columns on Chesscafe. Gambit's "psychology" perfectly fits in Heisman's definition of hope chess.
  

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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #23 - 04/18/10 at 17:38:33
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I doubt that "madness" was meant to be interpreted literally- "method in his madness" is a common phrase to show that something that might appear mad on the surface actually has a solid logical basis behind it.

Tim Harding had an interesting article on "Logicians vs Berserkers":
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz99.pdf

Of course categorisations like that always have drawbacks, but Gambit's approach (which also applies to myself to a lesser extent) appears very similar to what Harding describes as the "Berserker" approach.  I think of Markovich in particular as a strong example of a Logician on these boards.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #22 - 04/18/10 at 17:20:59
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Madness, no. Psychology in chess, yes.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #21 - 04/18/10 at 11:37:13
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There's a thing that Tim McGrew calls the "Caltrop Coefficient"- where it is easier for one side to err than the other and the price for erring can be more catastrophic for one side than the other.  In many gambits the caltrop coefficient heavily favours the gambiteer.

I'm sure it works for many obviously unsound openings.  For example I've scored well with the Englund Gambit (1.d4 e5, though these days I mostly use other responses to 1.d4) and the Portuguese/Jadoul Gambit (1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Bg4), because although White is probably +/- in the critical line of both openings, White rarely finds the correct path and most often ducks out with a harmless alternative- even at IM/GM level.  On the other hand, for openings with numerous critical responses, the chances of the opponent finding one of them are a lot higher and so the caltrop coefficient is lower.

Judging by White's high score with the Ryder Gambit I'm guessing that the Ryder Gambit has a decent caltrop coefficient but I still see no compelling reason to prefer it to 5.Nxf3, except perhaps that it is less well-analysed.
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #20 - 04/18/10 at 10:33:51
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It's sloppy chess, but it might work at a higher level than many people want to admit. For an extreme case, take Sam Sloan's Damiano Defense with 3.Nxe5 fxe5?? where he knowingly accepts a lost position in standard time controls to have the opportunity to demoralize his opponents. I think the Halloween Gambit (Four Knights with 4.Nxe5) is almost -/+ (or at least =/+) with accurate play in a couple of the most critical lines, but when I studied it carefully, it soon became clear to me that it is not an easy opening to refute "cold" OTB. It's funny. Sometimes I have a fascination with "improper" openings. If this were Go, they would be called hamete in Japanese which roughly translates to "trick plays." Often they are most likely incorrect, but a strong player should be able to figure out why beyond the fact that they are not joseki (standard). I will almost never play an opening that I believe to be incorrect, even if I find it to be interesting. It is matter beyond practical chances for me. As a consequence, there are many openings that I have studied that I never intend to play, even if it is unlikely that I would ever face them with the opposite color. I imagine a lot of people would think that I am wasting my time. I see it as a form of training, but perhaps it could be argued that it's not the most efficient use of time.

In regards to TN's claim that White is just as likely to make a miscalculation as Black, I would tend to agree in general terms if the positions were "cold" to both players, but that is often not the case and I think there may be a method to Gambit's madness. Wink
  
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Re: Refutation of the Ryder Gambit
Reply #19 - 04/18/10 at 05:52:32
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Gambit wrote on 04/17/10 at 23:16:09:
It is nice to discuss Ryder Gambit theory without a clock ticking at your side... but that is beside the point!
If this were a tournament game, most likely the opponent would make a miscalculation somewhere.
After all, not everyone reads this website.


I have my watch ticking at my side, if that counts. Tongue

If two players of equal strength play each other and one plays the Ryder Gambit, White is just as likely to make a miscalculation as Black. If White had real compensation for both pawns then fair enough, Black would be more likely to err, but as shown here Black is just much better (probably -/+).

Not everyone reads the Forum, but Black's moves aren't exactly difficult to find over the board. An alert Black won't fall for White's few tricks in a game with a classical time control.

  

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