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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) An attacking line against the Hedgehog (Read 19347 times)
BladezII
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #27 - 08/02/13 at 02:23:04
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BPaulsen,

Thank you very much for that.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #26 - 07/31/13 at 01:02:38
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Recapturing with the queen is not the only valid treatment for the positions (ie: I prefer 7.Re1 against ...d6 or ...a6 before ...Be7, and d4 with Qxd4 only against ...Be7).

7.e4 is the "correct" move, because in that scenario ...Nc6 surrenders the fight for the e4 square.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #25 - 07/29/13 at 20:06:26
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First, I am very glad I finally found the posts or the thread.   I wanted to ask what ideas can be suggested for White here in this variation.  Seems that black can stop White from capturing on d4 first with his Queen by playing this move order - 


1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O Nc6 6. Nc3 e6

7. d4      cxd4 
8. Nxd4  Be7 

[ 8... Bc5 9. Nxc6

(9. Ndb5 Na5 10. Bf4 Bxg2 11. Nc7+  Kf8 12. Kxg2 Rc8 13. N7b5 Nxc4 14. Nxa7 Ra8 15. Nab5 Qc8)

9... Bxc6 10. Bf4 O-O
11. Bxc6 dxc6 12. Qa4 Qe8]

9. Ndb5  Na5
10. e4    O-O
11. Bf4   Ne8
12. b3    a6
13. Nd4  d6
14. Be3  Nf6
15. f4    Rc8   
16. f5    e5
17. Nc2   b5
18. Nd5   Nxd5
19. exd5   bxc4


***  (or in the above line,   8... Bc5  is also looking good for black.)   *** 

  

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BPaulsen
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #24 - 01/11/11 at 13:24:57
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/11/11 at 12:34:33:
So, Houdini 1.5 burried all my past efforts? Maybe i'll look at it again when i have time. Thanks BPaulsen for the updates.


Nah, it really only buried 13...d5, I buried 15. g4 myself (I wasn't convinced by the optimism the engine showed since there is no attack, and after pursuing the line the evaluation starts dropping fast).

I couldn't figure out what was supposed to be wrong with 15...Nd7, and why we had always just played Bxe4 automatically.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #23 - 01/11/11 at 12:34:33
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So, Houdini 1.5 burried all my past efforts? Maybe i'll look at it again when i have time. Thanks BPaulsen for the updates.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #22 - 01/11/11 at 09:05:54
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Another update:

13. Ne4 0-0 14. Nfg5 g6 15. g4 Nd7 is =, regardless of which rook white moved to d1. Example:

16. Qh3 Bxg5! (the timing of this exchange is why black equalizes, white's Qh3 is inferior to the Qg3) 17. Nxg5 Nf6 18. Bxb7 Qxb7.

Black's loose structure is off-set by white's awkward piece coordination, and white has to be careful not to end up worse.
« Last Edit: 01/11/11 at 13:45:00 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #21 - 01/10/11 at 15:27:01
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An update...

11...Qc7 12. Rad1 Be7 13. Ne4 d5! (Schlosser) is perhaps not as clear an equalizer as I first thought when I looked at it.

I haven't been able to get what I would consider full equality against the engine's suggestion of:

14. cxd5 Bxd5 15. Rc1 Qb7 16. Neg5!? Bxg5 17. Nxg5 Bxg2 18. Rfd1 Bd5 19. e4 h6 - Houdini 1.5 (+0.32), and I'm inclined to agree with the evaluation of += it shows.

The entire continuation is mostly forced, and the resulting endgame looks comfortable for white. I'm not sure 13...d5 is enough to scare white afterall right now. Black, as is usual in chess, perhaps draws with perfect defense, but it is not going to be an enjoyable one.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #20 - 12/23/10 at 09:57:49
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/23/10 at 09:55:37:
I guess if not playing a line that involves e4 (fixing d6-pawn and applying pressure), White needs to be more wary of ..d5 being possible.


Well, even in the lines without e4 a ...d5 break that early just tends to not work out. That improvement happens to be an exception to the rule only available due to the fact white played Qd3+Rad1.

I still haven't gotten around to digging as deep as I'd like, but I'll post something more when I reach some conclusions.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #19 - 12/23/10 at 09:55:37
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I guess if not playing a line that involves e4 (fixing d6-pawn and applying pressure), White needs to be more wary of ..d5 being possible.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #18 - 12/22/10 at 11:58:46
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/22/10 at 10:10:16:
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/26/10 at 13:12:10:
According to conventional wisdom 11...Ra7 is better but this is not so difficult to be proven. After 11...Qc7 at first i thought to check your variation with 12.Rad1 Be7 13.Ne4 O-O and now 14.Nfg5 g6 (forced) 15.g4!?


Is this the Ftacnik - Short game?
ECO A (4ed) gives 13..d5 as an improvement with a ! (analysis by Schlosser)
Don't have to hand - will include full line later if you haven't seen already?


Yes, it was the Ftancik-Short game. 13...d5 looks like a very good improvement, sort of embarrassing to overlook given it almost stares you right in the face once you see it, but at least we're not the only players/analysts to miss it. Grin

It looks to me like white should check for alternatives to 12. Rad1. We never reached a conclusion on 12. Rfd1, we just sort of abandoned it for 12. Rad1. I've revisited what Ametanoitos considered a "tough nut to crack", namely 12. Rfd1 Be7 13. Ne4 0-0 14. Nfg5 g6 15. g4!? Bxe4 16. Nxe4 Nc6 17. Qg3 Ne5.

I'm not sure black's that comfortable there, but I need to investigate more.
« Last Edit: 12/22/10 at 13:41:26 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #17 - 12/22/10 at 10:10:16
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/26/10 at 13:12:10:
According to conventional wisdom 11...Ra7 is better but this is not so difficult to be proven. After 11...Qc7 at first i thought to check your variation with 12.Rad1 Be7 13.Ne4 O-O and now 14.Nfg5 g6 (forced) 15.g4!?


Is this the Ftacnik - Short game?
ECO A (4ed) gives 13..d5 as an improvement with a ! Don't have to hand - will include full line later if you haven't seen already?
« Last Edit: 12/23/10 at 09:34:02 by TicklyTim »  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #16 - 04/02/10 at 09:30:52
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19. Kh1 is one heck of a subtlety, but makes sense in many lines given Qc5+ resources tend to save black in some lines I checked. I'll have to toy around with it...

Engines tend to give white a plus in Hedgehogs due to the space factor, so I've taken that into account, but from what I can tell black has problems to solve.

And I agree with you, this line falls into the +=/<--> spectrum without requiring great precision.

I'll post if I find a problem with 19. Kh1.

One thing I noticed is that black can reach similar positions without the weakness of playing ...g6 via 12. Rad1 Be7 13. Ne4 Bxe4!? 14. Qxe4 Ra7, and black's solid, if slightly awkward.
« Last Edit: 04/02/10 at 10:33:06 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #15 - 04/02/10 at 08:59:40
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After  13. Ne4 O-O 14. Nfg5 g6 15.g4 13 Bxe4 16. Nxe4 Nc6 17. Qg3 Ne5 18. b3 Rad8  19.Kh1!? is given as a healthy +0.30 by FireBird 1.2 (the strongest engine at present available) at depth 24. This is a difficult move to understand but in every move i try for Black the f4 or g5 advances are given for White by the engine and Black lacks sufficient counterplay. So, this may be a nice solution. I don't pretend to understand everything here but my imperssion is that White can press for something good and it takes a very flexible and strong Black player to come up with a defenseve scheme. I like White's chances. At least the play is more straighforward and simple than the Uhlman's system and Black can be cruched if he is not carefull.

  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #14 - 04/02/10 at 03:24:55
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To be fair the positions after 9. e4 can also be reached via 9. Rd1 since each side will ultimately lose a tempo "correcting" their pieces (White playing Rd1-e1, black playing Qc8-c7), but I refer to it as 9. e4 for sake of brevity since it outlines more easily the Uhlmann concept [Qe3, most often Nd4, b3, Bb2, Rs d1/e1 (the rook placement is an interesting issue, as is eventual white queen placement, one of my favorite approaches being dropping the Q back to e1 after Re2 where it aids in preventing ...d5, white can time Nc2 to when ...b5 isn't possible, which allows f4 to go forward, there's also other approaches involving the somewhat awkward looking f3 if ...d5 isn't possible, with g4, h4 where the Qe1 is effectively placed to emerge on h4 after h4-h5)]. There's a lot of subtlety and nuance.

In Shipov's recent book he seemed to healthy respect for it, and thought the player with better feel/calculation abilities/plans will win.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #13 - 04/02/10 at 03:16:58
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I've noticed, BP, that lately you've been describing yourself as a technician.

I tend to prefer positions with a quiet += over a loud, messy + in otb chess. (In correspondence chess, most messes can be cleaned up.)

I agree that 9.e4 should lead to a small edge for White, and I'd be comfortable playing for a win OTB against someone +200 rtg pts.  Well, perhaps not comfortable. But....
  
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