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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) An attacking line against the Hedgehog (Read 18470 times)
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #27 - 08/02/13 at 02:23:04
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BPaulsen,

Thank you very much for that.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #26 - 07/31/13 at 01:02:38
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Recapturing with the queen is not the only valid treatment for the positions (ie: I prefer 7.Re1 against ...d6 or ...a6 before ...Be7, and d4 with Qxd4 only against ...Be7).

7.e4 is the "correct" move, because in that scenario ...Nc6 surrenders the fight for the e4 square.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #25 - 07/29/13 at 20:06:26
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First, I am very glad I finally found the posts or the thread.   I wanted to ask what ideas can be suggested for White here in this variation.  Seems that black can stop White from capturing on d4 first with his Queen by playing this move order - 


1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O Nc6 6. Nc3 e6

7. d4      cxd4 
8. Nxd4  Be7 

[ 8... Bc5 9. Nxc6

(9. Ndb5 Na5 10. Bf4 Bxg2 11. Nc7+  Kf8 12. Kxg2 Rc8 13. N7b5 Nxc4 14. Nxa7 Ra8 15. Nab5 Qc8)

9... Bxc6 10. Bf4 O-O
11. Bxc6 dxc6 12. Qa4 Qe8]

9. Ndb5  Na5
10. e4    O-O
11. Bf4   Ne8
12. b3    a6
13. Nd4  d6
14. Be3  Nf6
15. f4    Rc8   
16. f5    e5
17. Nc2   b5
18. Nd5   Nxd5
19. exd5   bxc4


***  (or in the above line,   8... Bc5  is also looking good for black.)   *** 

  

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BPaulsen
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #24 - 01/11/11 at 13:24:57
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/11/11 at 12:34:33:
So, Houdini 1.5 burried all my past efforts? Maybe i'll look at it again when i have time. Thanks BPaulsen for the updates.


Nah, it really only buried 13...d5, I buried 15. g4 myself (I wasn't convinced by the optimism the engine showed since there is no attack, and after pursuing the line the evaluation starts dropping fast).

I couldn't figure out what was supposed to be wrong with 15...Nd7, and why we had always just played Bxe4 automatically.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #23 - 01/11/11 at 12:34:33
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So, Houdini 1.5 burried all my past efforts? Maybe i'll look at it again when i have time. Thanks BPaulsen for the updates.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #22 - 01/11/11 at 09:05:54
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Another update:

13. Ne4 0-0 14. Nfg5 g6 15. g4 Nd7 is =, regardless of which rook white moved to d1. Example:

16. Qh3 Bxg5! (the timing of this exchange is why black equalizes, white's Qh3 is inferior to the Qg3) 17. Nxg5 Nf6 18. Bxb7 Qxb7.

Black's loose structure is off-set by white's awkward piece coordination, and white has to be careful not to end up worse.
« Last Edit: 01/11/11 at 13:45:00 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #21 - 01/10/11 at 15:27:01
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An update...

11...Qc7 12. Rad1 Be7 13. Ne4 d5! (Schlosser) is perhaps not as clear an equalizer as I first thought when I looked at it.

I haven't been able to get what I would consider full equality against the engine's suggestion of:

14. cxd5 Bxd5 15. Rc1 Qb7 16. Neg5!? Bxg5 17. Nxg5 Bxg2 18. Rfd1 Bd5 19. e4 h6 - Houdini 1.5 (+0.32), and I'm inclined to agree with the evaluation of += it shows.

The entire continuation is mostly forced, and the resulting endgame looks comfortable for white. I'm not sure 13...d5 is enough to scare white afterall right now. Black, as is usual in chess, perhaps draws with perfect defense, but it is not going to be an enjoyable one.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #20 - 12/23/10 at 09:57:49
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/23/10 at 09:55:37:
I guess if not playing a line that involves e4 (fixing d6-pawn and applying pressure), White needs to be more wary of ..d5 being possible.


Well, even in the lines without e4 a ...d5 break that early just tends to not work out. That improvement happens to be an exception to the rule only available due to the fact white played Qd3+Rad1.

I still haven't gotten around to digging as deep as I'd like, but I'll post something more when I reach some conclusions.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #19 - 12/23/10 at 09:55:37
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I guess if not playing a line that involves e4 (fixing d6-pawn and applying pressure), White needs to be more wary of ..d5 being possible.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #18 - 12/22/10 at 11:58:46
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TicklyTim wrote on 12/22/10 at 10:10:16:
Ametanoitos wrote on 03/26/10 at 13:12:10:
According to conventional wisdom 11...Ra7 is better but this is not so difficult to be proven. After 11...Qc7 at first i thought to check your variation with 12.Rad1 Be7 13.Ne4 O-O and now 14.Nfg5 g6 (forced) 15.g4!?


Is this the Ftacnik - Short game?
ECO A (4ed) gives 13..d5 as an improvement with a ! (analysis by Schlosser)
Don't have to hand - will include full line later if you haven't seen already?


Yes, it was the Ftancik-Short game. 13...d5 looks like a very good improvement, sort of embarrassing to overlook given it almost stares you right in the face once you see it, but at least we're not the only players/analysts to miss it. Grin

It looks to me like white should check for alternatives to 12. Rad1. We never reached a conclusion on 12. Rfd1, we just sort of abandoned it for 12. Rad1. I've revisited what Ametanoitos considered a "tough nut to crack", namely 12. Rfd1 Be7 13. Ne4 0-0 14. Nfg5 g6 15. g4!? Bxe4 16. Nxe4 Nc6 17. Qg3 Ne5.

I'm not sure black's that comfortable there, but I need to investigate more.
« Last Edit: 12/22/10 at 13:41:26 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #17 - 12/22/10 at 10:10:16
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/26/10 at 13:12:10:
According to conventional wisdom 11...Ra7 is better but this is not so difficult to be proven. After 11...Qc7 at first i thought to check your variation with 12.Rad1 Be7 13.Ne4 O-O and now 14.Nfg5 g6 (forced) 15.g4!?


Is this the Ftacnik - Short game?
ECO A (4ed) gives 13..d5 as an improvement with a ! Don't have to hand - will include full line later if you haven't seen already?
« Last Edit: 12/23/10 at 09:34:02 by TicklyTim »  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #16 - 04/02/10 at 09:30:52
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19. Kh1 is one heck of a subtlety, but makes sense in many lines given Qc5+ resources tend to save black in some lines I checked. I'll have to toy around with it...

Engines tend to give white a plus in Hedgehogs due to the space factor, so I've taken that into account, but from what I can tell black has problems to solve.

And I agree with you, this line falls into the +=/<--> spectrum without requiring great precision.

I'll post if I find a problem with 19. Kh1.

One thing I noticed is that black can reach similar positions without the weakness of playing ...g6 via 12. Rad1 Be7 13. Ne4 Bxe4!? 14. Qxe4 Ra7, and black's solid, if slightly awkward.
« Last Edit: 04/02/10 at 10:33:06 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #15 - 04/02/10 at 08:59:40
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After  13. Ne4 O-O 14. Nfg5 g6 15.g4 13 Bxe4 16. Nxe4 Nc6 17. Qg3 Ne5 18. b3 Rad8  19.Kh1!? is given as a healthy +0.30 by FireBird 1.2 (the strongest engine at present available) at depth 24. This is a difficult move to understand but in every move i try for Black the f4 or g5 advances are given for White by the engine and Black lacks sufficient counterplay. So, this may be a nice solution. I don't pretend to understand everything here but my imperssion is that White can press for something good and it takes a very flexible and strong Black player to come up with a defenseve scheme. I like White's chances. At least the play is more straighforward and simple than the Uhlman's system and Black can be cruched if he is not carefull.

  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #14 - 04/02/10 at 03:24:55
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To be fair the positions after 9. e4 can also be reached via 9. Rd1 since each side will ultimately lose a tempo "correcting" their pieces (White playing Rd1-e1, black playing Qc8-c7), but I refer to it as 9. e4 for sake of brevity since it outlines more easily the Uhlmann concept [Qe3, most often Nd4, b3, Bb2, Rs d1/e1 (the rook placement is an interesting issue, as is eventual white queen placement, one of my favorite approaches being dropping the Q back to e1 after Re2 where it aids in preventing ...d5, white can time Nc2 to when ...b5 isn't possible, which allows f4 to go forward, there's also other approaches involving the somewhat awkward looking f3 if ...d5 isn't possible, with g4, h4 where the Qe1 is effectively placed to emerge on h4 after h4-h5)]. There's a lot of subtlety and nuance.

In Shipov's recent book he seemed to healthy respect for it, and thought the player with better feel/calculation abilities/plans will win.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #13 - 04/02/10 at 03:16:58
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I've noticed, BP, that lately you've been describing yourself as a technician.

I tend to prefer positions with a quiet += over a loud, messy + in otb chess. (In correspondence chess, most messes can be cleaned up.)

I agree that 9.e4 should lead to a small edge for White, and I'd be comfortable playing for a win OTB against someone +200 rtg pts.  Well, perhaps not comfortable. But....
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #12 - 04/02/10 at 01:59:39
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Ametanoitos wrote on 04/01/10 at 21:53:21:
OMG! I just discovered that if White plays 12.Rad1! this 15.g5 idea with Qg3 etc is much stronger because there is added force to the f4 idea kicking the powerfull Ne5 that spoiled us the fan in the similar variation after 12.Rfd1. So, maybe this variation can be strong after all!


I get the lurking suspicion right now white might be able to maintain a pull in this 11...Qc7 variation, it's just not as easy as the 11...Ra7 one.

Also, I firmly believe white's chances in 9. e4 have been underrated by theory, largely owing to neglect in recent times. It's not a line where white tries to blow black off the board in the opening, but his space combined with the ability to prevent ...b5/...d5 means a technician may be able to procure something with accurate play (to borrow an example from the Tarrasch thread - +=/<---->).

I also have a small suggestion in the GM Banikas line for white that's interesting (13...Rc8 14. b3 Nc5 15. Qe3 h6 16. g4 Nf6 17. h3).

Anyway, enough talk - down to analysis:

12. Rfd1; 17...Ne5 18. Rac1 Rac8 intending ...b5 is annoying to be sure.

In 12. Rad1; 17...Ne5 18. b3 Rad8 and what's the idea here for white? One example I looked at is 19. g5 b5 20. cxb5 axb5 21. Nf6+ Bxf6 22. exf6 but after Nd7 black seems to survive.

19. f4 Nd7 20. f5 (20. Qc3!? is an engine suggestion, but 20...Nc5 21. Nf6+ Bxf6 22. Qxf6 b5 looks okay for black) is met by Nf6 when I don't see what white's up to.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #11 - 04/01/10 at 21:53:21
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OMG! I just discovered that if White plays 12.Rad1! this 15.g5 idea with Qg3 etc is much stronger because there is added force to the f4 idea kicking the powerfull Ne5 that spoiled us the fan in the similar variation after 12.Rfd1. So, maybe this variation can be strong after all!
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #10 - 04/01/10 at 21:48:59
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15.g4 Bxe4
(15...Nd7 16.Qh3 with an advantage according to my engine)
16.Nxe4 Nc6 17.Qg3! Rad8 or Rfd8 18.g5! why not immediately? I like White here. There is an additional possibility for Black after 17.Qg3 Rad8 18.g5 f5 but i think we can prove an advantage.

My engine prefers 17...Ne5 which seems more logical opening possibilities like Rb8 and ...b5 and then ...d5. I think this is a tough nut to crack.

As i said in the other post, i don't think Banikas-Gustafsson suggestion is favourable for White because on the plan with Rc8 and Nc5 i mentioned. You said something about the Uhlman system and i remember reading some possitove comments on it by Kasparov in the first volume of his "revelation" books. I'll take a look at it and if this doesn't work then i'd suggest to move on to Re1 lines, even though these are not to my taste...
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #9 - 04/01/10 at 09:23:40
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Günter Amann wrote on 04/01/10 at 08:45:54:
Hello,

i often tried to reach this line with the white pieces but my opponents did not allowed it:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. Nc3 e6
6. 0-0 d6 (!) and now after 7.d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 a6!
or 7. Re1 Ne4 (!?)
This is not often played but is there anything better than transposing with 8.Nxe4 Bxe4 9. d3 Bb7 10. e4 Be7 which is very safe for black?Both lines seem to be pretty solid for black in typical Hedgehog-style with view attacking chances for white.
Any suggestions?


After ...d6 white should immediately opt for the 7. Re1 variation where he has good chances to maintain an edge, because black's taken himself out of the most effective equalizing tries (6...Be7 7. Re1 Ne4 or d5).

Move orders are important, and black committing so early to ...d6 is not a good thing after 6...d6 7. Re1 Ne4, where he'll end up in slightly worse positions.

Refraining from having played ...d6 is actually the key reason black can equalize after 6...Be7 7. Re1 Ne4 8. Nxe4 Bxe4 9. d3 Bb7 10. e4 Nc6! 11. d4 cxd4 12. Nxd4 Nxd4 13. Qxd4 0-0 14. Rd1 Bc6 15. Bf4 Bc5!
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #8 - 04/01/10 at 08:45:54
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Hello,

i often tried to reach this line with the white pieces but my opponents did not allowed it:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. Nc3 e6
6. 0-0 d6 (!) and now after 7.d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 a6!
or 7. Re1 Ne4 (!?)
This is not often played but is there anything better than transposing with 8.Nxe4 Bxe4 9. d3 Bb7 10. e4 Be7 which is very safe for black?Both lines seem to be pretty solid for black in typical Hedgehog-style with view attacking chances for white.
Any suggestions?
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #7 - 04/01/10 at 05:22:00
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Lately I've noticed it seems like I'm always on the opposite side of Ametanoitos' suggestions, so perhaps we can make a joint effort for once, the Hedgehog seems like a good place for it.

We can start with the variation this thread is about, move into GM Banikas' suggestion, 9. e4, and then finally 7. Re1 Ne4 related lines. I'm always looking for something better than what I've got, so this should be fun.

We'll start from your 15. g4!?, since Tal's 15. Qd4 appears equal to me - white may be comfortable, but there's no way to exploit black's looseness.

15. g4 Bxe4 16. Nxe4 (16. Qxe4 Ra7 17. Nf3 Rc8 =) Nc6 (16...Nd7 17. Qg3) 17. Qg3 (arranging pressure on d6) Rfd8 18. Rac1 Rac8 19. g5 (intending Qf4/Nf6 and pressurizing the dark squares). This looks pretty plausible, and black is solid, but white's the only one with play.

Any thoughts Ametanoitos?
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #6 - 03/26/10 at 13:12:10
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According to conventional wisdom 11...Ra7 is better but this is not so difficult to be proven. After 11...Qc7 at first i thought to check your variation with 12.Rad1 Be7 13.Ne4 O-O and now 14.Nfg5 g6 (forced) 15.g4!? with the idea to play Qh3 but Black has some defensive resources and after all this looks unclear. But after a little research i found out that Tal has played this position starting with 12.Rfd1! Yes, this makes more sense now because the other rook can come to c1 to put the question to the Qc7. So, after 12.Rfd1! Be7 13.Ne4 (there is no need to play for f4 now) 13...O-O 14.Nfg5! g6 (forced) 15.Qd4! (and not the unclear 15.g4!?) was played in the game Tal-Browne, 1985 which ended in a draw after 15...h6 (15...e5 16.Qe3 and Rc1  with a slight edge for White at leat) 16. 16.Nf3 Bxe4 (because White wanted to play 17.Nf6+) 17.Qxe4 Nc6! (17...Nd7? 18.Nd4!) 18.Rac1 and the draw was agreed. I have the feeling that the resulting position may be slightly more favourable for White but the potential brakes with b5 and d5 are difficult to handle. So, maybe there is another solution. BPaulsen thanks for your contribution.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #5 - 03/26/10 at 12:16:39
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After looking at it again some more I finally remembered it was 11...Qc7, not 11...Be7 That annoyed me. After 12. Rad1 Be7 13. Ne4 is ineffective due to the simple 13...0-0, and 13. Nd4 Bxg2 14. Kxg2 Nd7 is fully equal.

That was the defect with white's Qd3 instead of Qf4 - threats on the d-file are made weaker by the queen's presence on d3.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #4 - 03/26/10 at 11:30:34
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But after 11...Be7 white doesn't need to play Rd1 to force Be7 and can continue as in the main line with Nd4, f4 etc. The Rook may be more usefull on c1 after Queen goes to the c file. Also the Queen must go to c8 and not to c7 because then the e6 pawn needs some support. Ofcourse all these are just words, but the analysis shows that 11...Be7 , as i give in my first post, is less good than the established 11...Ra7 but i'look at it in more detail.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #3 - 03/26/10 at 08:04:40
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In the past I did some extensive analysis on this line, and I couldn't immediately remember why I eventually dropped 11. Qd3.

Then I remembered - I liked white after 11...Ra7, whereas I wasn't so convinced after 11...Be7 12. Nd4 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 Qc7 (or 13...Qc8), and black will follow with ...Nc6.

Maybe Ametanoitos can fix what I couldn't.
  

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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #2 - 03/25/10 at 19:29:59
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That's why i publish my analysis on the chesspub! Thank you very much!

I tried to find something for White after 15...Nd7 but i failed. I suppose that after 16.f5 Ne5 is the idea transposing to the Watson line. Here i maganed to find an improvement:

15...Nd7 (or 15...Nc6) 16.f5 Ne5 17.Qe4 O-O 18.b3!N which is a novelty because there is an obvious reply for Black which is 18...b5?! but after 19.cxb5! Qxc3 20.b6 Rd7 21.Rxf8 Bxf8 22.Nxe6 white has fantastic compensation for the piece. We will continue with Rf1, Qd5, a4-a5 etc and Black seems to have problems.

So, it remains something like 18...Bf6, but now 19.fxe6 fxe6 20.Na4 b5 21.cxb5 d5 22.Qf4 is given as better for White by the engines and this is logical to me. The compensation for the pawn is unclear.
  
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Re: An attacking line against the Hedgehog
Reply #1 - 03/25/10 at 14:45:59
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Nice attacking game indeed. Thanks for sharing your ideas! I compared your setup against a small and a bit old but interesting hedgehog book (Jozsef Palkovi: Das Igel-System gegen die Englische Eröffnung, Kecskemet 1997). There, the author gives as best for Black:

15... Nd7! 16. b3 g6 17. e4 Rc7 18. Nce2 Qb7 "with counterplay" Gschnitzer-Ftacnik/Germany 1993. This move in fact might be a serious 15th move alternative. I would like to add that 16...Rc7 (in the Ftacnik game) followed by 17... 0-0  doesn't look bad to me either.

  
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Ametanoitos
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An attacking line against the Hedgehog
03/25/10 at 12:32:30
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Hello,

I have prepared a line against the Hedgehog for some time now and i had the chance to use this attacking line in a recent game of mine which ended in a violent attack and an easy win for me. I'd like to share my analysis so that this can be improved as Botvinik adviced in his time.


1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 Be7 4. Bg2 b6 5. Nc3 Bb7 6. O-O Nf6 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 d6
This is the starting position

(8... Nc6 9. Qf4 Qb8 10. Rd1 is better for White as many sources claim)

9. Bg5 a6 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11.Qd3 Ra7
This is again the main line

(11... Bxf3 12. exf3! )

(If11... Be7 12. Nd4 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 Ra7
(13... O-O 14. f4)
14. f4 the play is similar to the main line)

12. Rad1!

(If 12. Nd4 Bxg2 13. Kxg2 O-O 14. Rad1 Qc8
(14... Rd7is simpler)
15. Ne4 Be7 16. f4 Nc6 17. f5 Ne5 and Black is more than fine. White wants Black to play ...Be7 first and then he can continue with Nd4)

12... Be7 13. Nd4 Bxg2 14. Kxg2 Qc8 15. f4!
This is the idea of the whole line

15...Nc6 this is Watson recommendation

(The other major alternative is
15... g6 16. b3

(16. f5!? was played by Tal and now 16...gxf5

(16... exf5?! 17. Nd5 or 17. e4 give excellent attack)
17. e4 fxe4 18. Nxe4 and White has excellent compensation according to Martin)

16... O-O

(16... Rc7 17. Rf3 O-O 18. h4 is similar)

17. h4! Rc7 18. Rf3 Nd7 19. h5 Nf6 20. hxg6 hxg6 21. Rh1
(21. e4!? is also interesting)
21... Ng4 was played against me
(21... Re8 22. e4 Bf8 23. f5! is also dangerous for Black )

22. f5! gxf5 23. Nd5! exd5 24.Rxf5 Kg7 25. Rh7+ Kg8 26. Rfxf7 and Black resigned! I was feeling like Tal after this! Grin)

16. Rf3!? was played by Suba, a Hedgehog specialist for Black!

(Watson only gives 16. f5 Ne5 17. Qe4 O-O 18. fxe6 fxe6 19. Rxf8+
(19. b3!? is interesting but not critical )
19... Bxf8 20. Nf3 Nxf3
(20... Nxc4 $5 21. b3 Ne5 22. Nxe5 dxe5 23. Qxe5 is given as equal by the engines and if this is true then this seems like a simpler solution)

21. exf3 Rc7 ,"="  Watson,
22. Rd4 Rc6 23. Qe2 g6 24. Re4 Kf7 25. Qd2 Bg7
(25... Rxc4? 26. Qf4+ )
26. Nd5! Be5
(26... exd5? 27.Qxd5+ Kf8 28. Rf4+ )
27. Ne3
as i thought at first that this is better for White but as always the Hedgehod hides dynamic potential!
27...b5!

(27... h5 28. a4 a5 29. b3 is maybe slightly better for White but nothing seriois ofcourse )

28. b3 h5 29.Qd3 Qb7 30. h4and i dont think that White can claim an advantage. Even if it is better for White i like Suba's move better )

(16. Nxc6! Qxc6+ 17. Rf3 O-O is maybe a more accurate way to the main line
(17... Rc7 18. b3 O-O 19. f5is the typical idea in this line)
(17... Rb7 18. Qe4 Qc8 19. f5 again is clearly better for White)
(17... Qd7 18. f5)
18. f5 and we have the main line)

16... O-O

(16...Nxd4 17. Qxd4 O-O
is the only way Black can avoid the main line. After 18. b3 or 18. f5 White has interesting play but i don't think that he has the advantage)

17. Nxc6! Qxc6 18. f5!
White has an advantage imo. A sample line is
18...Rc7 19. Qe3 Qxc4 20. fxe6 fxe6? 21. Rd4 and White has a fantastic initiative

So, i think that Suba's idea is critical but a more accurate way to play it is 16.Nxc6!

Any comment or suggestion is more than welcome!

  
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