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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: The French Defence by Vitiugov (Read 91146 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #64 - 05/23/10 at 00:00:57
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Stigma wrote on 05/22/10 at 22:07:59:

By the way I thought the 3..c5 4.exd5 exd5 line with ...Nf6 and answering the check with ...Bd7 was the equalizer, while White has more chances for advantage against Uhlmann and Korchnoi's old ...Nc6 lines. Though I don't really know recent well deeply enough to decide.


Perhaps, but I've had the impression that it's a close thing.  For example, in Steffen Pedersen's Tarrasch book of a few years ago, he appeared to have the best-play lines after 5...Nf6 coming out as equal, while after 5...Nc6 there were a couple of cases where White could reach "+=/=" or "with a microscopic advantage."  
  
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Stigma
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #63 - 05/22/10 at 22:07:59
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MNb wrote on 05/22/10 at 21:17:12:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/22/10 at 18:42:59:
That's strange, I did not know it had such a high draw percentage, although perhaps I may have fathomed it. I've actually had four wins out of four games (one of them securing me first place in a weekend tournament) with 4...exd5, and my ELO is in the high 2200s Smiley


Well, I was exaggerating a bit. Still a lot of Frenchies think 3...Nf6 is the fighting move and 3...c5 is the slightly irritating hypercorrect move.
3...c5 is theoretically at least as fine as 3...Nf6. The drawing percentage is about 10% higher, but with 39% not exceptionally high.

The French really has an irrational element to it. With such hyper-drawish lines as 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bf4 available to White, it's highly inconsistent for Black to combine this with super-sharp stuff like the 3...Nf6 main line with ...Qc7 or the Winawer Poisoned Pawn!

So when planning my main French repertoire I try to choose solid, "serious" lines like 3..c5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Ngf3 Nf6, which I've played in just one tournament game (ironically I won - it's possible to blunder in even the calmest positions!). When I just want to have fun AND White is kind enough to not play the Exchange (both very common in practice), I may try dangerous stuff like 3.Nd2 Nf6 or even 3...Nc6!?.

By the way I thought the 3..c5 4.exd5 exd5 line with ...Nf6 and answering the check with ...Bd7 was the equalizer, while White has more chances for advantage against Uhlmann and Korchnoi's old ...Nc6 lines. Though I don't really know recent theory well deeply enough to decide.
« Last Edit: 05/23/10 at 08:05:54 by Stigma »  

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MNb
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #62 - 05/22/10 at 21:17:12
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/22/10 at 18:42:59:
That's strange, I did not know it had such a high draw percentage, although perhaps I may have fathomed it. I've actually had four wins out of four games (one of them securing me first place in a weekend tournament) with 4...exd5, and my ELO is in the high 2200s Smiley


Well, I was exaggerating a bit. Still a lot of Frenchies think 3...Nf6 is the fighting move and 3...c5 is the slightly irritating hypercorrect move.
3...c5 is theoretically at least as fine as 3...Nf6. The drawing percentage is about 10% higher, but with 39% not exceptionally high.
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #61 - 05/22/10 at 19:31:49
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In these days of repertoire books and Dangerous Weapons and Secret Surprises (as opposed to traditional opening books), maybe some publisher should put out "Innocuous Crap That Was Omitted."  A bit like Joni Mitchell's "Misses" album, perhaps.
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #60 - 05/22/10 at 18:42:59
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That's strange, I did not know it had such a high draw percentage, although perhaps I may have fathomed it. I've actually had four wins out of four games (one of them securing me first place in a weekend tournament) with 4...exd5, and my ELO is in the high 2200s Smiley
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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MNb
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #59 - 05/22/10 at 16:33:44
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/22/10 at 14:09:59:
I see that both Vitiugov's book neither Moskalenko's Flexible French do not cover the isolated 3...c5 Tarrasch, viz. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5. Is there something wrong about 4...exd5?

Yes, that it is such a complete equalizer that it's drawing rating only is surpassed by the Petrov and the Slav Exchange. Uhlmann's book about the French covers it quite extensively.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #58 - 05/22/10 at 16:21:27
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It surprises me that French Players worry about everything LOL. The Vitiugov guy covers all the most dangerous lines, and rather than rejoice you quibble about innocuous crap that was ommitted.

Go figure.

Tops Smiley
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #57 - 05/22/10 at 15:55:36
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5...Nf6 has indeed been the more modern tendency.  I've seen some sources giving it as leading to equality; the most recent quickie reference I have seems to think White should get "a tiny edge."  Yusupov by the way still plays the "old-school" 5...Nc6.
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #56 - 05/22/10 at 15:47:06
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Interesting. I usually play 5...Nf6 against 5. Ngf3 though. Most opponents played the line 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. Qe2 Be7 7. dxc5 line
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #55 - 05/22/10 at 15:05:27
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/22/10 at 14:09:59:
I see that both Vitiugov's book neither Moskalenko's Flexible French do not cover the isolated 3...c5 Tarrasch, viz. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5. Is there something wrong about 4...exd5 with the isolated pawn (after White will play ...dxc5)? I've always played against the Tarrasch like this, but it seems to be highly unpopular. In my opinion and experience, it seems to be a complete equaliser, unlike the Scandinavian hybrid 4...Qxd5.


Well, a few decades ago it was much more common than 4...Qxd5.  It is perhaps generally regarded as a bit better for White with best play.  One player that comes to mind who still plays it is Yusupov.  Incidentally just a few days ago there was this:

[Event "ch-USA"]
[Site "Saint Louis USA"]
[Date "2010.05.18"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Kudrin,S"]
[Black "Kaidanov,G"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2571"]
[BlackElo "2577"]
[EventDate "2010.05.14"]
[ECO "C09"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5 5. Ngf3 Nc6 6. Bb5 Bd6 7. dxc5
Bxc5 8. O-O Nge7 9. Nb3 Bd6 10. Re1 O-O 11. Bg5 Bg4 12. Be2 Re8 13. c3 Qc7
14. h3 Bd7 15. Nbd4 a6 16. Bd3 Ng6 17. Qc2 Nf8 18. Nf5 Bxf5 19. Bxf5 h6 20.
Be3 Rad8 21. Rad1 Ne6 22. Qa4 Bf8 23. Qg4 g6 24. Bb1 h5 25. Qa4 Bg7 26. a3
d4 27. cxd4 Nexd4 28. Nxd4 Bxd4 29. Bxd4 Rxe1+ 30. Rxe1 Nxd4 31. Qb4 Rd6
32. Be4 b5 33. Kf1 Ne6 34. Bf3 Rd4 35. Qb3 Rd2 36. Rd1 Nd4 37. Qd5 Qh2 38.
Ke1 Rxb2 39. Qd8+ Kh7 0-1
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #54 - 05/22/10 at 14:09:59
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I see that both Vitiugov's book neither Moskalenko's Flexible French do not cover the isolated 3...c5 Tarrasch, viz. 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 exd5. Is there something wrong about 4...exd5 with the isolated pawn (after White will play ...dxc5)? I've always played against the Tarrasch like this, but it seems to be highly unpopular. In my opinion and experience, it seems to be a complete equaliser, unlike the Scandinavian hybrid 4...Qxd5.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #53 - 05/15/10 at 14:50:23
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/15/10 at 14:03:23:
[...]Avrukh did not cover 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 Ne4?! and other dubious minor sidelines. If you cannot at least try to handle these replies over the board or on your own, do not buy the books.

Sic: "try".  Wink
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #52 - 05/15/10 at 14:38:30
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/15/10 at 14:03:23:
There must be a line drawn about minor sidelines. Just because Vitiugov does not cover 1. e4 e6 2. Nh3 does not mean it is not a repertoire book. To be honest, anyone over 2200 ELO should be able to work out a minor sideline such as 1. e4 e6 2. Nh3 over the board without any previous knowledge. For a 1700 ELO to fault this omission is silly, and is not due to any arrogance of Vitiugov.

I agree in principle (and on 2.Nh3 of course), but it's still a matter of opinion where to draw the line. Omitting every form of the French Exchange except the c4 lines (as derdua mentioned above) sounds too restrictive in a supposedly "Complete Repertoire". I'm criticizing the marketing more than the contents here.

The choice to cover all three main lines against 3.Nc3 also looks strange in what is today a below-average length repertoire book. Almost like the author couldn't decide whether to write a complete survey of 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 or a Black repertoire with 1.e4 e6. 

Or is the idea that the book also serves as White 3.Nc3 repertoire!?
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #51 - 05/15/10 at 14:23:06
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Alias wrote on 05/15/10 at 13:31:28:


Psakhis four books covers all lines and are not repertoire books.


Thanks, I corrected the number. I never claimed they were repertoire books (notice the comma in that sentence), but they are genuine attempts to be complete (for both sides), which was the relevant point.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #50 - 05/15/10 at 14:19:12
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La Tristeza, you´re right with that point. But concerning this book, there are two things to recognize:

- It´s nowhere near the quality of Avrukh´s books
- Ignoring obviously inferior lines is the least of the problems with Vitiugov´s book
  
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