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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: The French Defence by Vitiugov (Read 91158 times)
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #79 - 05/25/10 at 14:11:02
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Well, I have gone through a bookshop to get a look on this book. I'm a bit disappointed.

It targets so much the main lines that there are too much neglected "secondary" options.

For example, in the Advance Variation, after 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Qb6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. a3 Nh6 7. b4 cxd4 8. cxd4 Nf5 9. Bb2 Bd7, he simply don't even mention 10. Be2.
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #78 - 05/24/10 at 10:40:14
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I rather fancy he was referencing the title (and thus (theoretically!) the topic) of the thread Smiley
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #77 - 05/24/10 at 10:26:35
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So it's only beneficial to discuss moves that
1. you have met in practice;
2. are in your books.
Sounds a bit egocentric.
Fyi, with almost 600 games in my database 4.Bf4 is more regular than some other subjects of this forum.

PS: I apologize for misunderstanding (see next post).
« Last Edit: 05/24/10 at 11:37:48 by MNb »  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #76 - 05/24/10 at 05:00:48
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Huh? 
1. Never had Bf4 in exchange in some 20+ years of playing the French at club-county-international level in various countries. 
2. Not in the book.
Perhaps would be more beneficial to discuss what is, er, in the book?
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #75 - 05/24/10 at 01:41:34
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dom wrote on 05/23/10 at 17:45:57:
I don't agree about the fact this variation of French is "hyper-drawish" ... maybe it is offbeat and not so much analysis exists but what are variations basis of such assessment ?

Fact is that the drawing rate after 4.Bf4 is quite high. Indeed I already had noticed the attempt to disbalance the game with 4...Nc6, but haven't researched it yet.
To make things clear: only when I was convinced that the Exchange was not that drawish at all I decided to give the French a try. Imo Black easily can create a few imbalances by not copying White's play. Castling to the other side is one and an important example.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #74 - 05/23/10 at 22:40:03
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Thanks for the suggestions dom, I will take a look at the lines.

4.Bf4 seems to feature extremely often in the games of French (as in "representing France") players! I wonder how many of the following draws were NOT prearranged:

Prie-Kindermann, 1990 (12 moves)
Prie-Vaisman, 1991 (15)
Prie-Apicella, 1991 (9)
Prie-Moskalenko, 1992 (10)
Prie-Kosten, 1994 (7)
Prie-Sharif, 1994 (11)
Prie-Apicella, 1995 (11)
Relange-Sharif, 1995 (10)
Prie-Kaminski, 1996 (9)
Degraeve-Touzane, 1996 (8)
Apicella-Skripchenko, 1998 (9)
Lepelletier-Degraeve, 1999 (9)
Lepelletier-Apicella, 1999 (12)
Degraeve-Apicella, 2005 (12)
Kosten-Apicella, 2006 (9)

Don't these people have any respect for the opening their proud country gave its name to!?

Other repeat offenders include Heikki Westerinen and Robert Hess, who must be very pleased with their numerous draws and very infrequent wins against stronger opponents.
« Last Edit: 05/24/10 at 15:18:25 by Stigma »  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #73 - 05/23/10 at 21:53:03
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My own experience with the French echoes Dom's.  I have relatively very few draws as Black in the French compared to the rest of my repertoire.  When a U2000 player doesn't play the main line as white, s/he loses.

When a master (+2200) plays the Exchange, I have to fight tooth and claw for equality.  I'm much more happy when they play a main line. (I don't consider the Exchange Variation a main line!) I prefer 3...Nf6 in the Tarrasch, but I also play the Classical French as Black.   

I imagine that if I played the Winawer, I'd consider playing 3...c5 or even 3...a6 against the Tarrasch.  For me, it's more of a matter of consonance than objectivity.  I tend to believe that the French Tarrasch gives Black a playable game in at least three variations. I don't know if I fully trust 3...a6 for correspondence, but it seems good enough for tnmt play.
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #72 - 05/23/10 at 17:45:57
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Stigma wrote on 05/23/10 at 11:14:27:
With such hyper-drawish lines as 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bf4 available to White


I don't agree about the fact this variation of French is "hyper-drawish" ... maybe it is offbeat and not so much analysis exists but what are variations basis of such assessment ? 

I know Neven said same: "after this move every side has difficulty to get opening advantage" ... but what after: 4...Bd6!? .... Taljechin has put a little analysis here for 5.Qf3  and Schwab-Kindermann 1996 but it was a blitz! as reported by Neven

I advice this way to play for advantage s Black: 4...Nc6 5.Nf3 (5.c3 Nf6 6.Bd3 Bd6 7.Ne2 oo 8.oo Re8 9.Bxd6 (9.Qd2 Ne4)  Qxd6 10.Nd2 Westerinen-Kindermann,Skei 1994 (Neven) Bd7!?)  Bd6 6.Qd2 Nf6 7.Nc3  (7.Bd3 Qe7+) oo 8.ooo Bb4  all strategy based upon quick development and e4 key square.
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #71 - 05/23/10 at 16:09:34
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MNb wrote on 05/23/10 at 13:17:06:

Still it means that White runs a certain risk when just playing for a draw like this. It also means that Black can expect that mainly weaker players will try 4.Bf4 - exactly the group that has such a weak score.

A strong technical player as Black could calculate that he will win those dry positions often enough that it's worth it. But it's also a question of style; I prefer more strategically complicated middlegames if I can get them, and endgames are not my strongest point - yet  Smiley
MNb wrote on 05/23/10 at 13:17:06:

Granted, in a must-win situation for Black against an equally strong opponent who may be satisfied with a draw it might be wise to try something else. But how often that occurs?

Often enough that I've never had the French as my only defence. For me it's been more of a surprise weapon for games where a draw is OK (though I'm planning to take it more seriously in the next few years), so I'm much more likely to play it against stronger opponents. Besides, I play a fair bit of my chess in small weekend tournaments where I'm one of the highest rated players, so it's important to be able to win with both colors.
MNb wrote on 05/23/10 at 13:17:06:

Btw I can think of a few other variations after 1.e4 that make it hard for Black to play for a win.

Sure. Naturally I don't choose any of those to complement the French. Instead I've tried Pirc/Modern systems and various Sicilians with 2...e6 (which avoids the most drawish Antis). Both groups of openings are good bets for maintaining strategic imbalance and winning chances, without being obviously bad.
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #70 - 05/23/10 at 15:44:25
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One game does not prove that much.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #69 - 05/23/10 at 15:12:35
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The argument against all this is obviously Gurevich-Short interzonal tournament - Short need to win as Black to qualify, Gurevich only needed to draw - Short played the French, Gurevich the exchange variation, and the rest is history.
  
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #68 - 05/23/10 at 13:17:06
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Stigma wrote on 05/23/10 at 11:14:27:
That's because mostly lower-rated White players choose the Exchange in the first place.

I expected that answer. When both players have ELO 2000+ the drawing rate is still 41%. It is true though that the average rating of Black was about 100 points higher.
Still it means that White runs a certain risk when just playing for a draw like this. It also means that Black can expect that mainly weaker players will try 4.Bf4 - exactly the group that has such a weak score.
Granted, in a must-win situation for Black against an equally strong opponent who may be satisfied with a draw it might be wise to try something else. But how often that occurs?
Btw I can think of a few other variations after 1.e4 that make it hard for Black to play for a win.
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #67 - 05/23/10 at 11:14:27
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MNb wrote on 05/23/10 at 10:57:05:
Stigma wrote on 05/22/10 at 22:07:59:
The French really has an irrational element to it. With such hyper-drawish lines as 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bf4 available to White, it's highly inconsistent for Black to combine this with super-sharp stuff like the 3...Nf6 main line with ...Qc7 or the Winawer Poisoned Pawn!


I don't think combining a line that scores 41% for White with super-sharp stuff is highly inconsistent, even if it has a high drawing rate.

That's because mostly lower-rated White players choose the Exchange in the first place (But note that 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bf4 was Eric Prié's drawing weapon when he was a 1.e4 player. Normally sharp Frenchies like Kindermann, Kosten and Moskalenko duly accepted the early draws! When Prié wanted to win he played 3.e5 instead, with great results). 

So Black can either argue that only patzers will play the exchange and they will beat them anyway so it's consistent with playing sharply/for a win, or (as I do) acknowledge the basic solidity of the French and keep a safe and sound repertoire as a foundation, with license to go crazy and deviate with something sharp when I feel like it. 

And honestly if I'm desperate to win and my opponent is happy to draw, I choose another defence.
  

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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #66 - 05/23/10 at 10:57:05
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Stigma wrote on 05/22/10 at 22:07:59:
The French really has an irrational element to it. With such hyper-drawish lines as 3.exd5 exd5 4.Bf4 available to White, it's highly inconsistent for Black to combine this with super-sharp stuff like the 3...Nf6 main line with ...Qc7 or the Winawer Poisoned Pawn!


I don't think combining a line that scores 41% for White with super-sharp stuff is highly inconsistent, even if it has a high drawing rate.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: The French Defence by Vitiugov
Reply #65 - 05/23/10 at 09:08:58
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Probably depends which one Adams/Karpov/.... played most recently Smiley
  
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