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Normal Topic 9.0-0-0 (Read 5530 times)
bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #9 - 04/08/10 at 20:32:48
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9 .. Nd7 is not completly busted but white gets the
much better position with accurate play.

Black has also troubles in Qa5 variation as well in several lines. Qa5 is rarely played these days.

Qb8 is called Gufeld variation is totally busted if white knows what he is doing.

Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system is actually a minor line and at the internet I have tried this at least 20 times and never meet Nd5 in a single game and got good attacking positions instead after replies like h4 or even Kb1.
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #8 - 04/08/10 at 11:08:40
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Are 9.Bc4 Nd7 and 9.-Bd7 10.Bb3 Qa5
completely busted?
Are there any minor lines worth considering? 9.-Qc7, 9.-Qb8


This was the game you talked about, I guess. Seems so easy Smiley

[Event "2nd Grand Slam Masters Bilbao Final"]
[Site "Bilbao ESP"]
[Date "2009.09.06"]
[EventDate "2009.09.06"]
[Round "1"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "Sergey Karjakin"]
[Black "Alexey Shirov"]
[ECO "B78"]
[WhiteElo "2722"]
[BlackElo "2730"]
[PlyCount "47"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7
7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. Bc4 Bd7 10. O-O-O Rc8 11. Bb3 Nxd4
12. Bxd4 b5 13. Nd5 Nxd5 14. Bxg7 Kxg7 15. exd5 a5 16. a3 Kg8
17. Rhe1 Rc5 18. g4 b4 19. axb4 axb4 20. Qxb4 Qa8 21. Kd2 Rb8
22. Ra1 Rxd5+ 23. Ke3 Re5+ 24. Kd2 1/2-1/2

My opening road, was, by the way (from an ultimate aggressor to a wimp Smiley

Marshall --> Dragon --> Classical sicilian --> Taimanov --> french

I'm considering going back to sicilians, and hesitate between Dragon/off, Classical, Taimanov, Najdorf.

Possible way for me is Smiley

french --> Taimanov -->  Classical sicilian --> Dragon --> Najdorf
« Last Edit: 04/08/10 at 13:36:35 by Lauri Torni »  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #7 - 04/03/10 at 19:10:38
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Lauri Torni wrote on 04/03/10 at 11:23:40:
Well, it sems that black is under pressure in the 9.Bc4 line?


Thats correct, the only problem for black lies in 9 Bc4.
Black is ok in chinese (10 0-0-0 Rb8) and Soltis proper (10 h4 h5) but there are some problems in profylactic Kb1 system after the Polgar game and thats significnat via a 10 Bb3 mover order. Fortuannly white needs to improve over Karjakin-Shirov in Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system and computers has so far not found any significant improvment over that game. That game was played so recently that Shirovs novelty is not mention in any book (yet) and Karjakin played Rybkas top move agianst it. However, a coming book called "Cutting Edge the Sicilian" (or something like that) will probebly discuss that game since the so called Topalov System will have it own chapter there. The book will also cover profyaltic system in one chapter and chinese in one chapter.
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #6 - 04/03/10 at 11:23:40
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Well, it sems that black is under pressure in the 9.Bc4 line?
  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #5 - 04/03/10 at 09:50:40
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About Chinese 10 Bb3 also enables white to rule it out.  It allows black to play Nxd4 11 Bxd4 b5 but I think white is better here after Khalifmans 12 a4 until i see what Carlsen had in mind against it in a critical line where white improves over recent Anand-Carlsen (easy draw). White an also play 12 h4 a5 13 a4 where whites posion is easier to handle.

10 h4 also rules out chinese but allows Soltis variation but white can maybee force a transposing to a profylatic Kb1 Re8 line where lots of dangerous options has been ruled out after h4 h5 0-0-0 Rc8 Bb3 Ne5 Bg5 Rc5 Kb1 Re8 Bh6 Nc4 since after Qa5 instead g4 is strong.

About 9 0-0-0 d5 10 Kb1 I will have a look at my notes later for exact moves but I think I had some improvment over Yearbook.

About 9 0-0-0 d5 12 Bd4 line I can recommened this link where lots of other Dragon lines are coveredhttp://openingtheory.wordpress.com.
  
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TN
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #4 - 04/02/10 at 21:47:32
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bragesjo wrote on 04/02/10 at 12:46:33:
The reason why 9 Bc4 is more popular these days are

1.Fashion. Two recent white books recommened it.

2. Gives more attacking chanses and more prospects of an advantage, especailly if white does not allow chinese.

3. Current evaluation of of 9 0-0-0 d5

a. In Experts vs the Siclian Line 12 Bd4 white does not appear to have much these days. At higher levels Nxc3 variation results in draw after draw and Carlsens Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 seems equal as well. At subscription section Ward even commented that Nxc3 seems to have ruled out 12 Bd4 as a serious winning try.

b. 10 Kb1 Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 seems interesting but white does not have that much here either in my exf6 variation.

c. 10 Qe1 has for some reason run out of fashion, unclear why. It used to very popular but  gues that it has sometihng to do with current stauts of 10 .. e5


I had thought that stopping the Chinese Dragon with 10.h4 restricted White's options against Black's other Dragon variations. Is this true or is there little difference between 10.h4 and 10.0-0-0 other than circumventing the Chinese Dragon?

I agree with 3a and 3c, but I'd dispute 3b since after 12...ef6, 13.Nd5 Ne3 14.Qe3 is slightly better for White following Be6 15.Bc4 f5 16.c3 Re8 17.Nf4 Qc7 18.Be6 fe6 19.Rhe1 Qc6 20.Nd3 e5 21.Nb4 Qc4 22.Nd5. It's likely that you have analysed this variation in more detail than Yearbook 94, in which case I'd be interested to hear where you think Black can improve over the Yearbook's analyses.
  
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Lauri Torni
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #3 - 04/02/10 at 19:13:09
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Thanks! So -Nxc3 and -Bxd4 are both close to equal.

After 9.Bc4 due to move order tricks black has to know also Soltis, Chinese is not enough?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #2 - 04/02/10 at 12:46:33
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The reason why 9 Bc4 is more popular these days are

1.Fashion. Two recent white books recommened it.

2. Gives more attacking chanses and more prospects of an advantage, especailly if white does not allow chinese.

3. Current evaluation of of 9 0-0-0 d5

a. In Experts vs the Siclian Line 12 Bd4 white does not appear to have much these days. At higher levels Nxc3 variation results in draw after draw and Carlsens Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 seems equal as well. At subscription section Ward even commented that Nxc3 seems to have ruled out 12 Bd4 as a serious winning try.

b. 10 Kb1 Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 seems interesting but white does not have that much here either in my exf6 variation.

c. 10 Qe1 has for some reason run out of fashion, unclear why. It used to very popular but  gues that it has sometihng to do with current stauts of 10 .. e5
  
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TN
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Re: 9.0-0-0
Reply #1 - 04/02/10 at 11:20:18
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Are you asking how Black should meet 9.0-0-0 or 9.Bc4?

Against 9.Bc4, the Chinese Dragon offers the best chances of equality, and against 9.0-0-0, 9...d5 is the best option, when White has several possibilities including 10.ed5, 10.Kb1 and 10.Qe1.
  
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Lauri Torni
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9.0-0-0
04/02/10 at 10:46:41
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Why is nowadays 9.Bc4 more popular than 9.0-0-0?

I have always seen 9.0-0-0 to be very comfortable for white. What should black play here?
  
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