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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Help needed in the Berlin Wall (Read 23119 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #23 - 03/08/13 at 08:43:07
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I want to play the Berlin myself, but I'm not quite comfortable with 4.d3.

Has anyone here discussed the possibility of, after 4...Bc5 5.c3 Qe7?!  before??

Specifically, I kind of like the game Steinitz-Rosenthal, London 1883.
  

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MartinC
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #22 - 12/03/12 at 09:51:26
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Well, unless you're a sometime exchange lopez player or the like its nothing much like anything else you get to play as white, and of course not at all easy to handle either, so its very natural to dodge it for the odd time you see it.
  
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RdC
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #21 - 12/03/12 at 00:18:09
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About half of my Black games against king's pawn openings they don't play 3 Bb5.  The other half stronger opponents often avoid the ending with 4 d3.  Of those that don't 4 00 Nxe4, 5 Re1 is much more common than 5 d4 - in my experience at least.

4. Nc3 is also a viable choice. It's useful to know some Four Knights lines as they give options against the Petroff and also if you want to avoid 3 .. f5 in the Spanish.
  
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JonathanB
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #20 - 12/02/12 at 20:27:38
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JAlekhine wrote on 04/04/10 at 20:03:41:
I hope you can help me

PS: My Elo is 1950 if my rating is important


I have a similar rating and have been playing the Berlin for a year and a half.  Well I say 'playing' but I don't get the chance to play the ending very often.  Approximately once every 7 or 8 times I face 1 e4 I'd imagine.

About half of my Black games against king's pawn openings they don't play 3 Bb5.  The other half stronger opponents often avoid the ending with 4 d3.  Of those that don't 4 00 Nxe4, 5 Re1 is much more common than 5 d4 - in my experience at least.

PS: I would also strongly recommend John Cox's book.  Theoretically it must be dated now, but the strength of the book comes in the opening sections when JC discusses common Berlin positions at great length.
  

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fling
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #19 - 12/02/12 at 17:46:20
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BirdBrain wrote on 04/26/10 at 17:44:22:
I totally agree with what you have said here...I have been told that I should learn endgames first, but that is such a boring approach, it would push me away, considering the game now becomes work.  I think the amount of time I have spent in the opening (most of my initial studies) have really helped me learn about opening the pieces, and now I am getting pretty good positions in the opening.  I think it boils down to what makes you happy, not always what everyone tells you is the best. 


Well, I somewhat agree, because you need to know the opening to get a decent middlegame and endgame. But, if you don't play the late middlegame and endgame well, you will surely lose a lot of points. Or vice versa. I have been there many times. Just this weekend I managed to save two totally lost endgames just because my opponents played some sloppy moves or didn't have a good plan.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #18 - 12/02/12 at 06:06:59
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Patzerovich wrote on 04/12/10 at 15:24:02:
Oh, sorry for that mistake. But I still think it's complicated even for 1950 players.


I don't understand this quote. It's too complicated for 1950 players? Well chess is a complicated game! Who cares what opening someone plays?
  
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BirdBrain
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #17 - 04/26/10 at 17:44:22
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/10 at 00:46:44:
[quote author=75626579767072170 link=1270411421/15#15 date=1272238424][quote author=5C4E5B525A525E44435245370 link=1270411421/12#12 date=1272208414] This may sound reckless to a lot of people, but I think the effort put into learning an opening is usually more important to development than the value of the opening itself and inspiration naturally drives the process.


I totally agree with what you have said here...I have been told that I should learn endgames first, but that is such a boring approach, it would push me away, considering the game now becomes work.  I think the amount of time I have spent in the opening (most of my initial studies) have really helped me learn about opening the pieces, and now I am getting pretty good positions in the opening.  I think it boils down to what makes you happy, not always what everyone tells you is the best.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #16 - 04/26/10 at 00:46:44
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trw wrote on 04/25/10 at 23:33:44:
kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.



My very first game with the Berlin in my repertoire was against a player rated 1999... I drew him easily in the Berlin. My next game was against a player rated 1856 and he lost. Both games in the same tournament.


Wow, sounds like you were underrated. Then again, a 1000 rated player who's interested in the Berlin Wall probably isn't playing at a 1000 level. Were you a scholastic player? I remember being surprised that I was more than holding my own against 1500 players in my first adult tournament as a 1100. Ratings for scholastic players can be misleading sometimes, especially if the player is a motivated learner.

I remember doing well with the King's Indian although it was a strategically complex opening I "shouldn't" play. I also played the Dragon, but people rarely played main line theory against either of these and they still served me well as the less critical tries usually gave me good positions in the opening. If a low rated player finds a hero and is inspired to learn an opening, I say go for it. This may sound reckless to a lot of people, but I think the effort put into learning an opening is usually more important to development than the value of the opening itself and inspiration naturally drives the process.
  
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trw
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #15 - 04/25/10 at 23:33:44
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.



My very first game with the Berlin in my repertoire was against a player rated 1999... I drew him easily in the Berlin. My next game was against a player rated 1856 and he lost. Both games in the same tournament.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #14 - 04/25/10 at 20:17:19
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Well, yes, I would consider 3...Nf6 4. 0-0 Bc5 to be in a whole different category than the (queenless) Berlin in terms of whether such lower-rated players should consider aiming to play it.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #13 - 04/25/10 at 19:42:28
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.


Well the Exchange Variation is very popular at the lower levels and I could see the Berlin being effective against people who tend to play an early Bxc6 on autopilot. I think there is an argument for the Berlin simplying the work on the early deviations. I could see Classical Berlin setups with ...Bc5 scoring well at that level. Black gets active development against the less critical tries.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #12 - 04/25/10 at 15:13:34
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Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.
  
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trw
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #11 - 04/25/10 at 02:01:39
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 00:01:45:
I once had a 1500-ish student who was interested in the Berlin (Kramnik was his hero), but I think that for someone with that kind of rating, playing such a dry/sophisticated/strategic line borders on the ridiculous.



I started playing the Berlin Wall when I was rated 1000.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #10 - 04/25/10 at 00:01:45
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I once had a 1500-ish student who was interested in the Berlin (Kramnik was his hero), but I think that for someone with that kind of rating, playing such a dry/sophisticated/strategic line borders on the ridiculous.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #9 - 04/24/10 at 23:31:38
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Patzerovich wrote on 04/11/10 at 18:28:51:
I think "Berlin" is too complicated and difficult opening for a player with 1500. I would prefer 3...f5 or 3...Nd4 instead.

Doesn't 3...f5 require a lot of tactical ability and calculating power? Along with some concrete theory? Unless your suggestion is aimed at getting a junior or beginner to develop such abilities with such a line I would have thought the Berlin would be a better choice, not to mention being more sound.
  
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