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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Help needed in the Berlin Wall (Read 23322 times)
ghenghisclown
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #23 - 03/08/13 at 08:43:07
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I want to play the Berlin myself, but I'm not quite comfortable with 4.d3.

Has anyone here discussed the possibility of, after 4...Bc5 5.c3 Qe7?!  before??

Specifically, I kind of like the game Steinitz-Rosenthal, London 1883.
  

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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #22 - 12/03/12 at 09:51:26
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Well, unless you're a sometime exchange lopez player or the like its nothing much like anything else you get to play as white, and of course not at all easy to handle either, so its very natural to dodge it for the odd time you see it.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #21 - 12/03/12 at 00:18:09
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About half of my Black games against king's pawn openings they don't play 3 Bb5.  The other half stronger opponents often avoid the ending with 4 d3.  Of those that don't 4 00 Nxe4, 5 Re1 is much more common than 5 d4 - in my experience at least.

4. Nc3 is also a viable choice. It's useful to know some Four Knights lines as they give options against the Petroff and also if you want to avoid 3 .. f5 in the Spanish.
  
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JonathanB
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #20 - 12/02/12 at 20:27:38
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JAlekhine wrote on 04/04/10 at 20:03:41:
I hope you can help me

PS: My Elo is 1950 if my rating is important


I have a similar rating and have been playing the Berlin for a year and a half.  Well I say 'playing' but I don't get the chance to play the ending very often.  Approximately once every 7 or 8 times I face 1 e4 I'd imagine.

About half of my Black games against king's pawn openings they don't play 3 Bb5.  The other half stronger opponents often avoid the ending with 4 d3.  Of those that don't 4 00 Nxe4, 5 Re1 is much more common than 5 d4 - in my experience at least.

PS: I would also strongly recommend John Cox's book.  Theoretically it must be dated now, but the strength of the book comes in the opening sections when JC discusses common Berlin positions at great length.
  

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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #19 - 12/02/12 at 17:46:20
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BirdBrain wrote on 04/26/10 at 17:44:22:
I totally agree with what you have said here...I have been told that I should learn endgames first, but that is such a boring approach, it would push me away, considering the game now becomes work.  I think the amount of time I have spent in the opening (most of my initial studies) have really helped me learn about opening the pieces, and now I am getting pretty good positions in the opening.  I think it boils down to what makes you happy, not always what everyone tells you is the best. 


Well, I somewhat agree, because you need to know the opening to get a decent middlegame and endgame. But, if you don't play the late middlegame and endgame well, you will surely lose a lot of points. Or vice versa. I have been there many times. Just this weekend I managed to save two totally lost endgames just because my opponents played some sloppy moves or didn't have a good plan.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #18 - 12/02/12 at 06:06:59
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Patzerovich wrote on 04/12/10 at 15:24:02:
Oh, sorry for that mistake. But I still think it's complicated even for 1950 players.


I don't understand this quote. It's too complicated for 1950 players? Well chess is a complicated game! Who cares what opening someone plays?
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #17 - 04/26/10 at 17:44:22
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 04/26/10 at 00:46:44:
[quote author=75626579767072170 link=1270411421/15#15 date=1272238424][quote author=5C4E5B525A525E44435245370 link=1270411421/12#12 date=1272208414] This may sound reckless to a lot of people, but I think the effort put into learning an opening is usually more important to development than the value of the opening itself and inspiration naturally drives the process.


I totally agree with what you have said here...I have been told that I should learn endgames first, but that is such a boring approach, it would push me away, considering the game now becomes work.  I think the amount of time I have spent in the opening (most of my initial studies) have really helped me learn about opening the pieces, and now I am getting pretty good positions in the opening.  I think it boils down to what makes you happy, not always what everyone tells you is the best.
  
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ChevyBanginStyle
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #16 - 04/26/10 at 00:46:44
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trw wrote on 04/25/10 at 23:33:44:
kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.



My very first game with the Berlin in my repertoire was against a player rated 1999... I drew him easily in the Berlin. My next game was against a player rated 1856 and he lost. Both games in the same tournament.


Wow, sounds like you were underrated. Then again, a 1000 rated player who's interested in the Berlin Wall probably isn't playing at a 1000 level. Were you a scholastic player? I remember being surprised that I was more than holding my own against 1500 players in my first adult tournament as a 1100. Ratings for scholastic players can be misleading sometimes, especially if the player is a motivated learner.

I remember doing well with the King's Indian although it was a strategically complex opening I "shouldn't" play. I also played the Dragon, but people rarely played main line theory against either of these and they still served me well as the less critical tries usually gave me good positions in the opening. If a low rated player finds a hero and is inspired to learn an opening, I say go for it. This may sound reckless to a lot of people, but I think the effort put into learning an opening is usually more important to development than the value of the opening itself and inspiration naturally drives the process.
  
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trw
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #15 - 04/25/10 at 23:33:44
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.



My very first game with the Berlin in my repertoire was against a player rated 1999... I drew him easily in the Berlin. My next game was against a player rated 1856 and he lost. Both games in the same tournament.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #14 - 04/25/10 at 20:17:19
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Well, yes, I would consider 3...Nf6 4. 0-0 Bc5 to be in a whole different category than the (queenless) Berlin in terms of whether such lower-rated players should consider aiming to play it.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #13 - 04/25/10 at 19:42:28
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 15:13:34:
Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.


Well the Exchange Variation is very popular at the lower levels and I could see the Berlin being effective against people who tend to play an early Bxc6 on autopilot. I think there is an argument for the Berlin simplying the work on the early deviations. I could see Classical Berlin setups with ...Bc5 scoring well at that level. Black gets active development against the less critical tries.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #12 - 04/25/10 at 15:13:34
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Well, since 1000 is approximately the rating of a beginner, I struggle with the concept of such of a player "playing the Berlin Wall."  For one thing, I wonder if (s)he would ever get 4. 0-0 Ne4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bc6 dc 7. de Nf5 8. Qd8 Kd8 on the board.  1500 on the other hand is enough to have some idea of what lines/kinds of position one is aiming for, and to expect to face a few book moves from time to time.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #11 - 04/25/10 at 02:01:39
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kylemeister wrote on 04/25/10 at 00:01:45:
I once had a 1500-ish student who was interested in the Berlin (Kramnik was his hero), but I think that for someone with that kind of rating, playing such a dry/sophisticated/strategic line borders on the ridiculous.



I started playing the Berlin Wall when I was rated 1000.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #10 - 04/25/10 at 00:01:45
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I once had a 1500-ish student who was interested in the Berlin (Kramnik was his hero), but I think that for someone with that kind of rating, playing such a dry/sophisticated/strategic line borders on the ridiculous.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #9 - 04/24/10 at 23:31:38
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Patzerovich wrote on 04/11/10 at 18:28:51:
I think "Berlin" is too complicated and difficult opening for a player with 1500. I would prefer 3...f5 or 3...Nd4 instead.

Doesn't 3...f5 require a lot of tactical ability and calculating power? Along with some concrete theory? Unless your suggestion is aimed at getting a junior or beginner to develop such abilities with such a line I would have thought the Berlin would be a better choice, not to mention being more sound.
  
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JAlekhine
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #8 - 04/13/10 at 12:20:05
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Patzerovich wrote on 04/12/10 at 15:24:02:
Oh, sorry for that mistake. But I still think it's complicated even for 1950 players.


I think you should play mainlines with white/black if you want to get better in chess.
Almost 2000 Elorating should be enough to play every opening.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #7 - 04/12/10 at 15:24:02
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Oh, sorry for that mistake. But I still think it's complicated even for 1950 players.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #6 - 04/12/10 at 08:05:45
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He has a rating of 1950. That should be enough to play the berlin, right?
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #5 - 04/11/10 at 18:28:51
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I think "Berlin" is too complicated and difficult opening for a player with 1500. I would prefer 3...f5 or 3...Nd4 instead.
  
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #4 - 04/06/10 at 05:01:02
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I've been playing the Berlin wall for 3 years before John Cox's EXCELLENT book was published on it.

You have already found one of my favorite berlin players Smiley Leonid Kritz and Zoltan Almasi are regular practitioners outside of the usual top 10 suspects (Kramnik, Aronian etc).

Another great resource is Kramnik's dvd my path to the top where he talks a little about his berlin prep for Kasparov in 2000.

Another introductory just fun vid to the berlin is FM Dennis Monokrouss part 1+2 chessvideo.tv on the Berlin Wall.

In general, when I play the berlin i'm thinking in general ideas for my plans instead of forced moves. As white and black (since I play it from both colors), I have objectives. As black, I want to trade a set of minor pieces (mostly one set of knights), retain if possible the bishop pair (especially the unopposed light square pieces), and try to create light square targets.

As white, I want to get in e6 with whatever possible, especially with e5 f4 g4 h3 setups on the kingside. If white doesn't hammer home his pawn majority... he might find himself quickly worse or lost.

These types of ideas.
  
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JAlekhine
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #3 - 04/05/10 at 17:33:04
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Yesterday I found this great game in the internet, maybe some of you didnt know it yet, I think its great

[Event "4th IECC"]
[Site "Istanbul TUR"]
[Date "2003.06.10"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Friso Nijboer"]
[Black "Leonid Kritz"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C67"]
[WhiteElo "2562"]
[BlackElo "2468"]
[PlyCount "86"]
[EventDate "2003.05.30"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5
8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3 Ke8 10. h3 Be7 11. Bg5 Bxg5 12. Nxg5 h6 13. Nf3 h5 14. Ne2
Ke7 15. Nf4 g6 16. Rfd1 Ng7 17. Rd2 Rd8 18. Rxd8 Kxd8 19. Kf1 Ke7 20. Ke2 a5
21. Kd2 Ne6 22. Nxe6 Bxe6 23. Ke2 a4 24. Ng5 Bf5 25. Rc1 c5 26. f4 c4 27. a3 c5
28. Rd1 b5 29. Rd5 c3 30. bxc3 b4 31. cxb4 cxb4 32. Rc5 bxa3 33. Rc7+ Bd7 34.
Rc3 Rc8 35. Kd2 Rxc3 36. Kxc3 h4 37. Nf3 Bc6 38. Nxh4 Be4 39. g4 g5 40. fxg5
Ke6 41. Nf5 Bxf5 42. gxf5+ Kxf5 43. h4 Kg6 0-1

Because of such games I want to play Berlin myself  Grin Smiley Wink
  
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JAlekhine
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #2 - 04/04/10 at 21:47:28
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TN wrote on 04/04/10 at 20:54:29:
Everything you need to and should know to play the Berlin Wall successfully is in John Cox's marvelous book 'The Berlin Wall' by Quality Chess. All the key games you need to know are in this book as well, and I strongly recommend you read part 1 on Berlin endgames before studying the theory, not just to improve your understanding of this opening but also of chess in general.


Thank you very much for your answer!
I will think about buying this book, I searched about it in the internet, it really sounds interesting.
Do you have any other advice?
Where are the black Berlin Wall players in this forum?  Grin
  
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TN
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Re: Help needed in the Berlin Wall
Reply #1 - 04/04/10 at 20:54:29
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Everything you need to and should know to play the Berlin Wall successfully is in John Cox's marvelous book 'The Berlin Wall' by Quality Chess. All the key games you need to know are in this book as well, and I strongly recommend you read part 1 on Berlin endgames before studying the theory, not just to improve your understanding of this opening but also of chess in general.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Help needed in the Berlin Wall
04/04/10 at 20:03:41
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Hi guys!

I recently began playing 1.e4 e5 with black (I quit the Sicilian because I wanted to play something new and I didnt like this sharp games anymore). Now I have a problem:
I have no experience in the Ruy Lopez, I chose to play the Berlin Wall with black. How can I start training my understanding in the Berlin Wall? Are there any pages in the internet (english or german) ? What games should I know? What books are useful?
Undecided Undecided Undecided
I hope you can help me

Thanks

PS: My Elo is 1950 if my rating is important
  
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