Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan (Read 9850 times)
fanat
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 12
Joined: 04/23/09
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #14 - 06/19/10 at 17:38:37
Post Tools
huggy wrote on 03/22/10 at 04:21:03:
I recently started trying the Ragozin/Vienna and have had quite a bit of success around the 2000-2100 level. Most people are simply unfamiliar with it's theory or plans, which is always great news when you're playing something sharp and dynamic.

All my learning came from
(1) Chesspub Subscription - easily the most comprehensive materials out there right now.
(2) Small chapter in Rizzitano's Chess Explained: QGD
(3) A couple of surveys in NIC Yearbook 93 and 94.
(4) Megabase '10 and recent games.

Huggy


Is this a good opening for even a lower rated player?

I've looked through Chess pub material and it looked very interesting.

I started to study QID and hope to study NID also but it's too much theory and memorization that I would rather spend on tactics and endgames.  So, I'm hoping this will cut down on the workload and be a bit sharper than classical QGD.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #13 - 04/15/10 at 22:32:09
Post Tools
4...Nbd7 5.e3!? for a Anti-Meran player (and not a Botbinik-Moscow player) is nice and practical.

And yes 6...Bd7 may not be the main move. I just wanted to show the Qc2 idea.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #12 - 04/15/10 at 20:46:34
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 04/15/10 at 20:20:02:
6...Bd7 isn't really necessary, White is often happy to drop the queen back to c2 anyway. There is a tempo fight going on in these positiions: Black wants to play ...dxc4 followed by ...e5, but only after White spends a tempo with his light-squared bishop. In the meantime, 0-0, a6 and Re8 are all more useful moves than Bd7.


Right, hence why 6...0-0 is supposed to be the main move.

It's not even clear how 6...Bd7 is useful, since 6...0-0 develops and serves the same purpose of breaking the pin.

Quote:
I think Markovich recommended meeting 4...Nbd7 with 5.cxd5 and 6.Bf4 in his old "Hard Chess" column.


The resulting positions with 6. Bf4 bear strong resemblance to those with 6. Bg5, given black will be playing Nh5 soon. The structure takes on an Exchange QGD appearance with Nf3, which is somewhere between += and =.

Not a bad choice to be sure, but not sure if it's critical to black's move order, either.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3150
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #11 - 04/15/10 at 20:20:02
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:32:45:
6...Bd7 isn't the main move in theory to my knowledge, but rather 6...0-0. Of course, I could be wrong...


6...Bd7 isn't really necessary, White is often happy to drop the queen back to c2 anyway. There is a tempo fight going on in these positions: Black wants to play ...dxc4 followed by ...e5, but only after White spends a tempo with his light-squared bishop. In the meantime, 0-0, a6 and Re8 are all more useful moves than Bd7.

BPaulsen wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:32:45:
Aside from that, how do you advantageously avoid the Ragozin with cxd5 and Bg5 after 4...Nbd7?


I think Markovich recommended meeting 4...Nbd7 with 5.cxd5 and 6.Bf4 in his old "Hard Chess" column.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #10 - 04/15/10 at 19:32:45
Post Tools
6...Bd7 isn't the main move in theory to my knowledge, but rather 6...0-0. Of course, I could be wrong...

Aside from that, how do you advantageously avoid the Ragozin with cxd5 and Bg5 after 4...Nbd7?
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #9 - 04/15/10 at 14:44:37
Post Tools
5.Qa4+ Nc6 6.e3! Bd7 7.Qc2 and White is a little better. This line was discussed in this foroum sometime ago and gave me two fine victories for me and one for a student of mine. Nothing serious, but it is the kind of long-term small advantage because of this ungly Nc6 that Black players don't seem to be able to manage. Also Grivas' analysis in one CBM (maybe 126?) was pretty convincing. Again, nothing so serious to put a Ragozin player off but i'd rather be White in all lines than Black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #8 - 04/15/10 at 00:30:14
Post Tools
GM Yermolinsky was pretty optimistic about black's chances after 5. Qa4+, telling me and the other players present for the discussion/lesson (now IM Rensch, FM Garrett) that black's unorthodox Nc6 is off-set by white ultimately losing time with the Q, and being unable to ultimately exploit the Nc6.

Aside from that - 4...Nbd7 is another interesting try for black to take the game into Ragozin channels while side-stepping 5. Qa4+ (if that were even the problem line). The only option white gains in that move order is the QGD Exchange with Nf3, which doesn't scare black players nowadays.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
Reply #7 - 04/14/10 at 23:07:03
Post Tools
I always considered 4...Bb4 as inaccurate due to 5.Qa4+ and i haven't changed my mind till those times. 4...dxc4! is more of a problem for White, but recent practice confirms that White has found ways for an advantage in these sharp lines. As Black i'd rather stick with the Classical and trusted ...Be7 stuf
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2326
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #6 - 04/06/10 at 21:53:49
Post Tools
I'm rather fond of the Ragozin, but the Vienna is a bit tough.  It would be good to find an alternative for Black if White doesn't take the pawn on d5.
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #5 - 03/22/10 at 19:24:44
Post Tools
To me, it looks difficult for Black to play this way without lots of preparation.  But I understand that it's considered viable.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zatara
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 422
Location: Virginia
Joined: 02/26/08
Gender: Male
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #4 - 03/22/10 at 04:28:00
Post Tools
Thanks guys appreciate your time!!
Zatara
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
huggy
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 21
Joined: 04/04/09
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #3 - 03/22/10 at 04:21:03
Post Tools
I recently started trying the Ragozin/Vienna and have had quite a bit of success around the 2000-2100 level. Most people are simply unfamiliar with it's theory or plans, which is always great news when you're playing something sharp and dynamic.

All my learning came from
(1) Chesspub Subscription - easily the most comprehensive materials out there right now.
(2) Small chapter in Rizzitano's Chess Explained: QGD
(3) A couple of surveys in NIC Yearbook 93 and 94.
(4) Megabase '10 and recent games.

Huggy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1984
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #2 - 03/19/10 at 09:37:51
Post Tools
Going by the number of strong GM games recently, rather good Smiley

Best source by some distance is probably subscribing to the d4 d5 section here. Lots of stuff.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zatara
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 422
Location: Virginia
Joined: 02/26/08
Gender: Male
Ragozin/Vienna
Reply #1 - 03/19/10 at 02:34:18
Post Tools
Hi all,
I am wondering what the reputation of these openings are and were to find information about them?  I am thinking of adding Nimzo indian....  As the QID and Bogo don't seem as dynamic as the Ragozin/vienna....
thank you for your time,
Zatara
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2326
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Ragozin/Westphalia/Manhattan
04/06/10 at 23:28:37
Post Tools
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Bb4 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5

It seems as though 6...Nbd7 has become the most common or fashionable response at this point, but there appear to be three other options that warrant some consideration:

6...0-0
6...h6
6...c5

Has anyone had any experience with any of these?  Any thoughts?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo