sharpplay, don't you know that you can get a Tarrasch against 2.Nf3 just by playing 2...c5?  White has nothing better than 3.c4! when 3...e6 brings about the Tarrasch.  White can, of course, insist upon some sort of Colle with 2.e3.

Maybe it's a more precise move order to play ..c5 and ..Nbd7/Qc7 before ..g6.

kylemeister wrote on 05/03/10 at 14:28:41:


Yeah, me too, but having done all that, I think that Black is still playing for ...e5.  Maybe my ignorance is showing at this point, but that's the way I've played it.

I too like g6 against the Colle, which in my view just totally stymies White.  Nevertheless I'm not sure how easy it is to produce wins with this.  I've played some games where both sides get P-K4 in, after which there isn't a great deal of play for the win, at least in my experience.  I don't think that Black has the option of not playing for ...e5, does he?

kylemeister wrote on 05/02/10 at 05:32:56:


Yes, that's the line. A reversed Grünfeld, but Black's "missing" tempo is ...Nc6 which he actually benefits from leaving out, since White can't meet 5...e5 with 6.Nxc6 and 7.c4. In the regular Grünfeld a rule of thumb is "only play ...d5 once White has played either Nc3 or g3".

I've seen strong players like Granda Zuniga, Villamayor and Shengelia play into this with White, so it's a bit optimistic to think Black is better. But the score in the databases is greatly in Black's favor. So the transposition is a good suggestion from Rudel in a line where White has struggled to find even interesting play. Maybe the correct name for Rudel's move order is "The Reversed Reversed Grünfeld"!?

kylemeister wrote on 05/02/10 at 05:32:56:


Ah, Black is now White! I think I still prefer Black there though.

Stigma wrote on 05/02/10 at 00:16:41:


You do have a point, but I think that is actually a good sign for Black. A weaker player of the White pieces will probably have more difficulty dealing with the greater complexity. If you encounter these systems a lot as Black it may be worth spending the time on a minor line of the Grunfeld. The Barry is tricky and I've played it myself as White with success, but really Black should not fear it if he wants to generate greater winning chances. So yes, this does take more preparation than I indicated, but I think this approach would be effective against a lot of Colle/London players who lack versatility to handle other openings. Of course, creating imbalances to generate winning chances against solid openings usually comes with the cost of requiring greater understanding or preparation and this is no exception as the Colle and London are fundamentally sound openings.

Question on the Colle-Gruenfeld line: isn't the original line you are comparing favorable for White though? It does not look very clear to me. The more I think about it, I think I would rather play the Schlecter Slav! So now I have the opposite opinion you have.

I'll offer another recommendation against the Colle which is not too difficult to learn:

You can take a look at DPA's (Dzindzichashivili, Alburt, and Perelstehyn) repertoire book for Black as they recommend a Be7+b6 approach in the Colle that can be reached by 1..d5. I considered it an effective system for Black well before that book came out. I think Meeting 1.d4 by Aagaard and Lund also recommended a similar approach. (DPA's London System recommendation is QID-style, so it cannot be reached by 1..d5.)