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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin (Read 14290 times)
battleangel
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #14 - 06/05/10 at 21:39:58
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I played that stuff once too, it's not really good.
If white plays an early h3 preventing Bg4 in the line with ... d5 e5 black has not much fun ...
  
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MNb
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #13 - 05/08/10 at 19:25:49
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It is. 4...dxc3 5.Nxc3 (no need for Qb3 first) is also a Morra Fianchetto.
  

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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #12 - 05/08/10 at 17:21:26
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MNb wrote on 05/08/10 at 14:14:11:
d) 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 and neither 5...Nc6 6.cxd4 nor 5...Nf6 6.e5 looks completely satisfying.


4.-Bg7 5.Nf3 dxc3 is a transposition into the Morra's Fianchetto
Isn't it?

c.) 4...dc3 I've not aboard behind me but maybe 5.Qb3

  

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MNb
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #11 - 05/08/10 at 14:14:11
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It occurred to me that White has another option, a sharp and very attractive one for gambit players.

1.e4 c5 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 (or 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6) 4.Bc4!?

a) 4...d3 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Qb3 forcing some weak black squares in the opponent's camp;
b) 4...Nf6 5.e5 d5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 looks fine for Black. so I suggest 5.Qb3, eg d5 6.exd5 Bg7 7.Nf3.
c) 4...dxc3 5.Nxc3 is a good version of the Morragambit.
d) 4...Bg7 5.Nf3 and neither 5...Nc6 6.cxd4 nor 5...Nf6 6.e5 looks completely satisfying.
  

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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #10 - 05/05/10 at 10:51:06
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Brehn wrote on 05/04/10 at 09:23:09:
I believe that 2...g6 is actually pretty good as a winning chance creating system against weaker players. My opinions:
- 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Bc4 Nc6! is nothing for white, he has to be careful to be not worse.
- 5.exd5 Nf6 followed by 6...Nxd5 is (usually) a harmless Panov and an ideal position to outplay an equally strong/weaker opponent with minimized risk. Black just is comfortable after Nf6xd5-b6, Nc6-a5, Bg4 and Rc8. The thrust d4-d5 is actually not dangerous at all in these positions. The only line causing discomfort might be 6.Nc3 Nxd5 7.Qb3! Nb6 8.d5! denying ...Nc6; but I think Black has chances for equality there. In the Panov proper I believe that the best answer to 5...g6 is 6.Qb3 rather than 6.cxd5.
- 5.e5: Settle for a long game in a dynamically equal position with winning chances for both sides. In fact, many white players don't know how to handle this position and blindly walk into big problems by just playing "natural" developing moves. Sample: 5.e5 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nh6 7.Nf3?! Bg4 8.Be2?! Bg7 9.h3?! Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Nf5 and it's probably -/+ already. I believe though, that 5.e5 is the critical test of 2...g6 and I haven't yet found a good antidote to the white setup of 6.Nc3 eyeing d5, meeting ...Nc6 with Bb5 and either Nge2 or h3 and then Nf3 (in this order). After an eventual Bxc6 Black will receive a backward pawn on c6 with no perspective of ever pushing it to c5 (white can anticipate this with Rc1, Na4 and/or b4), while also being stuck with his bad white-squared bishop.

Now i'm agreed with all that(see topic pool Morra.
More importantly Collins change is mind about the line 5.Nc3 ed 6.Bc4 too.
Now he think that black is ok in this line .
In the 5.e5 line yes white must know the in and the out.
  

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Brehn
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #9 - 05/04/10 at 09:23:09
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I believe that 2...g6 is actually pretty good as a winning chance creating system against weaker players. My opinions:
- 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Bc4 Nc6! is nothing for white, he has to be careful to be not worse.
- 5.exd5 Nf6 followed by 6...Nxd5 is (usually) a harmless Panov and an ideal position to outplay an equally strong/weaker opponent with minimized risk. Black just is comfortable after Nf6xd5-b6, Nc6-a5, Bg4 and Rc8. The thrust d4-d5 is actually not dangerous at all in these positions. The only line causing discomfort might be 6.Nc3 Nxd5 7.Qb3! Nb6 8.d5! denying ...Nc6; but I think Black has chances for equality there. In the Panov proper I believe that the best answer to 5...g6 is 6.Qb3 rather than 6.cxd5.
- 5.e5: Settle for a long game in a dynamically equal position with winning chances for both sides. In fact, many white players don't know how to handle this position and blindly walk into big problems by just playing "natural" developing moves. Sample: 5.e5 Nc6 6.Nc3 Nh6 7.Nf3?! Bg4 8.Be2?! Bg7 9.h3?! Bxf3 10.Bxf3 Nf5 and it's probably -/+ already. I believe though, that 5.e5 is the critical test of 2...g6 and I haven't yet found a good antidote to the white setup of 6.Nc3 eyeing d5, meeting ...Nc6 with Bb5 and either Nge2 or h3 and then Nf3 (in this order). After an eventual Bxc6 Black will receive a backward pawn on c6 with no perspective of ever pushing it to c5 (white can anticipate this with Rc1, Na4 and/or b4), while also being stuck with his bad white-squared bishop.
  
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #8 - 04/17/10 at 20:41:10
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1.e4 c5 2. c3 g6 3.d4 cxd5 4.cxd4 d5
I have played this system for one and half years and I decided to drop it and switch back to my previous line. I believe the system is very solid but it does not let you complicate the position enough to create winning chances. Also, although I often got promising positions from opening, somehow I failed to convert for some reason. Maybe the arising positions were not to my liking or maybe the positions were not yielding enough winning chances. Instead of finding the reason I switched to something else that I like better.
  
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #7 - 04/14/10 at 18:51:00
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nimzo5 wrote on 04/14/10 at 18:40:48:
Also seems that Tiviakov doesn't mention the Bc4 line. odd. Was in the Watson's most recent twic book reviews.


Many books don't mention that line; I hardly find it odd that a DVD (if that's what you're referring to) doesn't mention it, especially if Tiviakov likes 5. e5 for White.
  
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #6 - 04/14/10 at 18:40:48
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Also seems that Tiviakov doesn't mention the Bc4 line. odd. Was in the Watson's most recent twic book reviews.
  

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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #5 - 04/14/10 at 18:04:56
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nimzo5 wrote on 04/14/10 at 16:31:12:
Nc6 does seem to be the move. I would be more concerned about lines where White plays 5. e5 and acc. to Tiviakov has a large advantage. In practical play, I have found it very hard to win games against weaker players in that line.


White has "a large advantage"?  I would think that the usual theoretical view of that line is "+=".
  
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #4 - 04/14/10 at 16:31:12
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Nc6 does seem to be the move. I would be more concerned about lines where White plays 5. e5 and acc. to Tiviakov has a large advantage. In practical play, I have found it very hard to win games against weaker players in that line.
  

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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #3 - 04/14/10 at 00:32:49
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Remarkable. This is important for the Morra Gambit as well: 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 d5 and if White wants to avoid the transposition to the Panov and doesn't like the closed positions after 5.e5 either there is a third option. And it's more or less a gambit as well!
Still I am not convinced yet. Black has 5.Nc3 dxe4 6.Bc4 Nc6 eg 7.Qb3 e6 (looks ugly, but just wait) 8.d5 Nd4 9.Qd1 e5. Black looks OK to me as the passed d-pawn can be stopped.
  

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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #2 - 04/14/10 at 00:16:45
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Ok, 1. e4 c5 2. c3 g6  3. d4  cxd  4. cxd  d5  5. Nc3  dxe4 6. Bc4.

Obviously, this is just one of the possible lines and Watson doesn't mention it. However, it seems to be one of the most critical variations to look at before deciding to take up this opening.
  
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Re: Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
Reply #1 - 04/13/10 at 23:42:43
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As not everybody owns Collins' books and it is quite hard to fill in the 3rd, 4th and 5th moves, could you provide a move order?
If it's 3.d4 cxd4 be aware that White can offer a Morra Gambit with 4.Nf3.
  

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Opinions/Info on 2. .. g6 against Alapin
04/13/10 at 23:25:11
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I've become interested in this line after Sam Collins mentioned it in his book as "one of black's best options". The most challenging of the white replies that he gives is his mention of 6.Bc4. Cross-referencing to John Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings he says that black is able to get a "quite playable game and come close to achieving full equality".
     Can anyone give insight into their beliefs on 2. ... g6? I'm finding some games in the database (Chess Assistant, mostly), but it looks like there aren't many people playing it at all.
  
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