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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited (Read 45665 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #91 - 05/19/10 at 15:40:51
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Thanks for this Stefan! It just goes to show once again, ChessPub leads the way! ...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #90 - 05/19/10 at 13:12:39
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Boris Avrukh (1.d4 Volume Two, Glasgow 2010) gives 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.f4 Ng6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nf3 6...Bc5?! 7.Nc3 Nh6 8.f5 Nh4 9.Ng5 ("!N"), which is indeed good for White. But he ignores 6...b6, 6...Bb4+ and 6...d5.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #89 - 05/15/10 at 13:48:03
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Absolutely no probs Stefan! Yes, there must be plenty of alternatives. I'll post some others I've thought of when I get a mo. At present I'm about my other current obsession -- researching Bach cantatas!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #88 - 05/15/10 at 13:17:51
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[quote author=62616B6D0C0 link=1271505369/87#87 date=1273915374]The suggestion of 9 …Nfd7!? instead of Herzog’s 9 …a6 is just what I’d thought earlier might be Black’s best (#74, 69)![/quote]
Michael, I've overlooked that you had already recommended ...Nfd7 - my apologies. It seems reliable enough for an otb game or two. W. - Herzog isn't much worse, and there are perhaps 30-50 other good alternatives for Black along the way. So for the rare 2...Nb8 game, there is no lack of options.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #87 - 05/15/10 at 09:22:54
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I emphatically do not think that 2 …Nb8 should be disregarded! – I was merely summing existing opinion. But nor do I see my concerns as ‘just’ subtleties, if by that is meant my being over-finicky! It’s always struck me that it’s rather unclear just what sort of  “+=” these positions represent, that they’re perhaps underexplored and that new ideas might be found here and a better assessment reached – just what a site like this exists for, innit?!

I’d been worried about 6 …Bg4 because of 7 h3. But I notice that Black got away with it in Lahtinen-Lundquist, Finnish Ch. 1994, which went: 7 …Bf3 8 Qf3 Bg7 9 Bd3 Nbd7 10 Qe2 c6 11 0-0 Qc7 12 Be3 0-0. Reliable? – I notice that Black did not castle before White did …

The suggestion of 9 …Nfd7!? instead of Herzog’s 9 …a6 is just what I’d thought earlier might be Black’s best (#74, 69)! It’d be good to test this in some games. Of course, the more reliable this idea may come to seem, the less Herzog is to be criticised, perhaps, for omitting to play …Bg4!

I haven’t looked at 8 …e5 9 Be3 Nh5 yet – interesting. I notice [u]9 g4[/u] has been played with success.


@ realpolitik

Point taken. 3 …Ng6 looks rather artificial and I don’t know whether it can be rescued from the line given by K&S (which isn’t in Berdichevsky’s book). But don’t you think the 3 e4 e6 4 de fe 5 Nc3 b6!? line is reasonable? Meanwhile, after 2 Nf3, 2 …d5 isn’t the only possibility; 2 ...d6, for example, might lead to the positions we've been discussing.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #86 - 05/15/10 at 04:18:38
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.h3 Nc6 7.d5 Nb8 8.Bd3 "+=" Nunn. 8...c6 (not too bad: 8...e5 9.Be3 Nh5 Bystryakova - Gaprindashvili, St. Petersburg 2007) 9.0-0. The += is probably fair. But the flexible 9...Nfd7(!) looks good, followed by Na6-c5 and an eventual a5.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #85 - 05/15/10 at 02:38:24
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I would have thought that all of those sorts of lines would fall within "+=".  That's what Nunn (in NCO) thought of the version where White gets to play h3 and Bd3, for example.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #84 - 05/15/10 at 00:18:28
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[quote author=282B2127460 link=1271505369/82#82 date=1273873700]Obviously I want to think this is so! But I am confused! How early do you feel Black can/should play ...Bg4 if allowed (or to put the same thing another way, how early could White profitably prevent it with h3)? In one way it seems logical to think Black should play ...Bg4 immediately in reply to e4, but I'm often worried that if White hasn't developed his KB, h3 might be a strong reply (and also maybe Qb3). So, for example, in the next game that Berdichevsky gives -- Ovsejevitsch-Istratescu, which went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 e4 Nf6 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 Bg4! -- should Black have played 6 ...Bg4, and given that he played 6 ...Nf6 instead, why wasn't 7 h3 and 8 Bd3 strong?[/quote]
I am confused, too. While I only claim that 2...Nb8 is reasonable, certainly better than +/- or "disregarded" (your word in post #64), you are worrying about such subtleties. After 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.e4 (reaching Wirthensohn - Herzog), Black now has 6...Bg4, as in e.g. Grünfeld - Alekhine, Margate 1923 (=, 32).
If White combines h3 & Be2, we enter a KI side-line (Bogolyubov - Yates; Balashov - Kuzmin etc.) where Black's small "sin" to have played Nc6 before e5 isn't too tragic because of the slower h2-h3.
It may be a concession to play Bg4 early, but on the other side White has made a concession himself (d4-d5) which saves Black some work (e.g. Bg4, Nfd7, Nc6 puts d4 under pressure, hoping for d4-d5).
Since I am not the greatest KI expert, you should rather consult a book. The problems seem relatively minor to me. 
  
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realpolitik
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #83 - 05/14/10 at 22:05:25
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[quote author=3C3F3533520 link=1271505369/59#59 date=1273250701]@ Stefan

Interesting lines. I see what you mean that the 'Clamp' shouldn't per se be a big problem, as long as Black plays a timely ...Be7 and ...c5.

@ realpolitik

This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?[/quote]

After 3...Ng6 there is no need for white to obligingly weaken the g1-a7 diagonal with 4 f4. Berdichevsky (or Keilhack and Schlenker) seems to think white is better after 4 Nf3. I would like if this line worked but the whole thing seems a bit fishy to me. Even the simple 2.Nf3 transposing to a chigorin might be enough for a slight edge see Kramnik-Short from last year (or was it the year before?)
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #82 - 05/14/10 at 21:48:20
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Obviously I want to think this is so! But I am confused! How early do you feel Black can/should play ...Bg4 if allowed (or to put the same thing another way, how early could White profitably prevent it with h3)? In one way it seems logical to think Black should play ...Bg4 immediately in reply to e4, but I'm often worried that if White hasn't developed his KB, h3 might be a strong reply (and also maybe Qb3). So, for example, in the next game that Berdichevsky gives -- Ovsejevitsch-Istratescu, which went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 e4 Nf6 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 Bg4! -- should Black have played 6 ...Bg4, and given that he played 6 ...Nf6 instead, why wasn't 7 h3 and 8 Bd3 strong?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #81 - 05/14/10 at 21:27:21
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But transposing to various KI lines (e.g. Bg4 in Herzog's game) does prove that "Nb8 must be correct", no? May I quote you regarding Nb8: "I seem to recall us tentatively concluding that Black wasn't quite all right [...]". An early Bg4 in Wirthensohn - Herzog is good enough for all practical (and theoretical) purposes, I think.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #80 - 05/14/10 at 20:32:54
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I think we might be talking slightly at cross-purposes Stefan -- sorry if I created some confusion! I'm interested in this discussion/thread essentially for the very simple reason that I'm interested in 1 d4 Nc6!? full stop, not because I'm looking to create KID/Pirc-style positions with ...Nb8 wherever possible. (And much less because I'm wanting you or anyone to list all such possible transpositions! -- a fascinating project that would certainly be for another thread, if not another lifetime ...) Indeed I don't think it's a good idea to 'fixate' on particular setups like that even though we all of course have our favourites. Much better to keep flexible! -- and we chessplayers have to be undogmatic and open-minded, do we not?

That, I guess, is why I'm interested in both Black second moves after 2 d5; and I cited the W.--H. game (here and in the other thread) just because I thought -- rightly or wrongly! -- that the d5/e4/c4/Bd3 setup posed the biggest challenge to 2 d5 Nb8!?, and this game is cited in Berdichevsky's book. (I also had a strong 'vested interest' in this setup as it can arise from my favourite Nimzowitsch Defence [with 2 Nf3 d6], and indeed other openings.)

I haven't explored 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Nb8 much yet, but this far it seems to me that what's fascinating is not just the transpositions that are possible from this position, but also the range of setups closely analogous to other more mainstream openings (near-transpositions, if you like) that the players can, with their various third moves, start to construct between them.



  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #79 - 05/14/10 at 19:43:03
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I do not claim that e5 & Bd6 is best, or Nf6-g8. Really, there are so many alternatives! I fail to see why Wirthensohn - Herzog matters. If you prefer KI or Pirc set-ups, there are many ideas where Nb8 is fine. In the W.-H. game, 11.Bf4 cxd5 12.exd5 bxc4 13.Bxc4 Nbd7 14.Nd4 Bb7 15.Nc6 Bxc6 16.dxc6 Rc8 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxd5 Ne5 19.Rc1 e6 20.Be4 may be +=. Btw, in that game White plays h3 too late, inviting Bg4, in the style of a Smyslow KI.

Benkner - Uhlmann, Leipzig 1953, was a standard KI with Nc6, d4-d5, Nb8, followed by Ne8 and f7-f5. There are 50 games in the database where in the main line KI (e5/d5/Nc6-e7) Black plays Nc6-b8 instead. Score: 53%-47%. It's a bit passive, but note that with Qe7, a5, b6, Na6/d7 you can control c5 four times - no fast c4-c5 anymore. Also interesting is Uhlmann's specialty e5&c5. He combines it with the more dynamic Nc6-e7 though.

And don't forget that you can play Ng8-e7. There is a good chance to transpose to a main line KI with Nf6-d7, just by playing Ng8-e7 and Nb8-d7. Please don't urge me to list all the Pirc versions available by transposition...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #78 - 05/14/10 at 17:12:31
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Nice one! -- as often, I was a bit too hasty. Incidentally I noticed this game before out of the corner of my eye, but seeing the players' ages and ...Bd6 failed to take it seriously -- big mistake! In a way this line makes the whole thing quite attractive, since a lot of Whites (at least at my level!) might go after the Bishop and so give black a decent Tango-style position.

Will take a look at 3 Nf3 f5!? (I guess the challenge here is to avoid being a tempo down on a Leningrad or 2 Nf3/3 d5 Dutch ...). [b]Edit:[/b] maybe 3 Nf3 [u]Nf6[/u] 4 c4 e6 is worth a look (5 Nc3 Bb4 (or Bc5))? 3 c4 e5!? 4 Nf3 and I guess 4 ...e4 and 4 ...Bb4 both make some sense?
« Last Edit: 05/14/10 at 18:40:27 by Michael Ayton »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #77 - 05/14/10 at 15:48:09
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[quote author=7F7C7670110 link=1271505369/76#76 date=1273849771]Sophie Greilich's line -- can't White get some advantage at least by going after the Bishop with say 6 Nbd2?[/quote]
6.Nbd2 0-0 7.Nc4 Bc5 8.Ncxe5 Re8 9.0-0 (9.Bg5 h6) 9...d6 10.Nc4 Nxe4 11.Bxe4 Rxe4 12.Qd3 Bf5 13.b4 (13.Ng5 Rf4) 13...Bb6 =.
3.c4 e5 would be an option, hoping to get rid of the Bf8.
  
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