I like it! -- daft of me not to have got round to looking at 8 ...Nh6. I guess you're thinking of something like (10 ...0-0!) 11 Bh6 gh 12 g3 ef!, and White's King could have a very fugitive life ...

Fingers crossed that, between us, we're rescuing this defence! It's great fun, anyway.

I haven't yet found anything against 6 Nf3 Bc5 7 Nc3 either; 7 ...Nf6 allows 8 e5, and 7 ...a6 seems too slow.

But [b]6 ...Bb4!?[/b] might be OK? What's now best? [u]7 Nc3[/u] Nf6 8 Bd3 0-0 then ...d5 looks potentially OK though I haven't looked much at this. [u]7 c3[/u] is a concession in one sense I suppose and after 7 ...Bc5 (should this be found wanting there are other retreats!?) 8 Bd3, 8 ...d6 (Blocher--Lenninger) might be reasonable? I'd also considered 8 ...Nf6 9 e5 Nd5 10 Bg6 hg 11 Qd3 0-0[b]*[/b] 12 Qg6 Qe8!? with some comp. -- which led me to wonder why, after 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nf6(?!) 8 e5!, no one(?) has suggested 8 ...Nd5 -- but probably I'm just overlooking something obvious! Instead of 8 Bd3 in this line my strongest engine goes [u]8 Nbd2[/u] Nh6 9 Nb3 Bb6 10 f5 ef 11 Bh6 gh 12 ef Qe7 13 Kd2!!, but just [u]8 ...d5[/u] looks natural?


[b]*[/b] [b]Edit.[/b] Instead of 11 ...0-0 an engine of mine flirts with the amazing [b]11 ...b5!!??[/b] (12 Qg6 Kf8; 12 Qb5 Qe7). I'd never have thought of this in a month of Sundays -- maybe it's not so daft!

Nice one! Note to self: must learn to think dynamically when ahead in development, must learn to think dynamically when ahead in development, must learn ...

Of course, I never believed in 10 e5 anyway! Increasingly, I don't believe so much in this whole line for White, "best" though it may be. Any thoughts, Stefan, on 6 Nf3 -- 6 ...Bc5 7 Nc3!? or 6 ...Bb4 7 c3!? (which looks to me best, though I may well be talking tripe)?

And then we'll move on to 6 Nc3 and 6 Be3 ...

Wow! 11 c4!? is nothing if not double-edged ... Will take a look. [b]Edit:[/b] should this prove strong, Black could prefer ...Bd7 or ...b6 on move 10, whereupon if c2-c4 White has to reckon with ...dxc4.

The ending you mention I adjudged equal. 7 Nc3 needs work but is there anything wrong with the natural 7 ...Nf6? -- sample line 8 Bd3 0-0 9 0-0 d5 10 e5 Bc5 11 Kh1 Ng4 12 g3 Nh6!, and that famous idea ...Be7! could be on the cards ...

In the [b]4 ...c6!?[/b] line with 6 g3, 6 ...cd 7 ed Nf6 8 Nc3 a6!? looks interesting and maybe I'd underestimated this -- I guess White could overreach in a desire to punish Black's cheeky idea.

In Collyer--Barle Black certainly had to undertake imaginative regrouping before finishing off his lower-rated opponent. Will take another look at this.

In the [b]4 ...e6/5 ...fe[/b] line though, I'm not sure I'd be worried about 10 e5 even without 10 ...Be7!. But I think this precise move is well worth worth remembering -- I've noticed it occurring in other 'Bozo' positions.

After 6 Nf3 Bb4 here, 7 Nc3 is interesting and I need to look at this more. But on 7 Bd2, isn't 7 ...Bd2 8 Qd2 Qf6 OK (unless White has a good sac)? 

[quote author=7C7F7573120 link=1271505369/34#34 date=1272233767]
@ Hehmer
2 ...Nb8!? is certainly an interesting practical try, one I wouldn't want [i]not[/i] to have in my arsenal! Of course you could well be right about the 2 ...Ne5/4 ..e6 line, but it's under-explored and thus it prompts my interest! While 5 ...de obviously looks +/=, Black's results have seemingly been good and Burgess, for one, thinks White has little. I'd be interested to know which line(s) you fear most after 5 ...fe. At the moment I'm favouring:

[u]6 Bd3[/u] Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6, e.g. 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5 (see earlier posts, esp. Stefan's TN!)

[u]6 h4[/u] b6!?

[u]6 Nf3[/u] Bb4!? (under-explored?)[/quote]

After 5.dxe6 dxe6 6.Qxd8+ Kxd8 7.Nf3 I liked only 7...Bb4+ and found 4 games with that move: 
Karpov,A - Berladier,L (1998), Crouch,C - Barle,J (2001),  Blagojevic,D - Lazic,M (2004) and Collyer,C - Barle,J (2009)

Blagojevic,D - Lazic,M is especially annoying for Black. Barle's two wins are encouraging at first sight but I don't think he was quite OK after the opening against Collyer, who followed Karpov's recipe (Bd3, Ke2, g3 +=).

My problem with 5...fxe6 is general one. I would like play d5 but then the Ng6 is especially stupidly placed. 

Here's an example:

[Event "Zalakaros op 22nd"]
[Date "2003.05.21"]
[White "Berczes, David"]
[Black "Szakony, Laszlo"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2324"]
[BlackElo "2237"]

1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3. e4 e6 4. f4 Ng6 5. dxe6 fxe6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Bd3 Nh6 8. Qe2 O-O 9. g3 d5 10. Nc3 c6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Ng5 Qe7 13. e5 Bd7 14. h4 Rfb8 15. Nxh7 Kxh7 16. h5 b4 17. Nd1 Rf8 18. g4 Be8 19. g5 Rh8 20. hxg6+ 1-0

Stefan's innovation 10...e5 improves on 10...c6 but White can play 10.e5!? immediately. 

I like 6...b6 as response to the computer move 6.h4. 

6.Nf3 Bb4+ is interesting. Many players will answer this with 7.c3 which is inferior to both 7.Nc3! (+=) and 7.Bd2 (+=).

Very ingenious, Stefan! It'll take me a while to get my head round this! 7 de de 8 e5 Bb4 looks perfectly reasonable to me. How would you meet 6 (or 7) g3? -- maybe not too terrible, but maybe decent for White as well?

@ Hehmer
2 ...Nb8!? is certainly an interesting practical try, one I wouldn't want [i]not[/i] to have in my arsenal! Of course you could well be right about the 2 ...Ne5/4 ..e6 line, but it's under-explored and thus it prompts my interest! While 5 ...de obviously looks +/=, Black's results have seemingly been good and Burgess, for one, thinks White has little. I'd be interested to know which line(s) you fear most after 5 ...fe. At the moment I'm favouring:

[u]6 Bd3[/u] Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6, e.g. 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5 (see earlier posts, esp. Stefan's TN!)

[u]6 h4[/u] b6!?

[u]6 Nf3[/u] Bb4!? (under-explored?)

Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/25/10 at 05:01:31:


7.f5 may be critical but Black needs also a good plan against the simple 7.dxe6 dxe6 8.e5 (+=) which I would expect from most players caught by surprise. Then 8...Bb4 9.Bd2 Bxc3 10.bxc3 should be good for White, 8...f6 is well met by 9.Bd3 and 8...N8e7 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.g3 looks at least more comfortable for White. Black may well end up with a cramped position. 

Here some more general notes to this thread: 

I really would like 1.d4 Nc6 to work (mainly because of 2.c4 e5!?) but I abandoned the idea some time ago because I don't trust the line 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 and I can't hold the queenless middlegames after 5...dxe6 6.Qxd8+ against myself often enough. Should I ever play 1.d4 Nc6 in a serious game I'll probably answer 2.d5 with 2...Nb8 and then d6, g6 and so on. 

For those who intend to play 2...d5 after the popular 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 it might make more sense to study the other lines (3.Nc3, 3.cxd5) of the Chigorin and play 1...d5 first.