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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited (Read 51897 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #61 - 05/08/10 at 01:06:15
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Thanks Stefan -- another interesting line. It gave me three thoughts: (1) maybe White could try 6 Nf3 here instead of 6 Be3? -- but it looks to me no better; (2) what, I wonder, happens after 3 ...Ng6!? [u]4 Nf3[/u] -- should Black try 4 ...c6 here too?; (3) after either knight move Black could try 4 ...e5 5 de [u]de[/u] -- since this presumably can't be better for White than the version with f2-f4, hopefully we'll never be able to talk about this move-order trick refuting the Bogo!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #60 - 05/07/10 at 21:45:53
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[quote author=6D6E6462030 link=1271505369/59#59 date=1273250701]This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?[/quote]
Michael, after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 Ng6, there is also the more flexible 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Nf3!? (5.f4). The lesser evil might be 4...c6, for example 5.h4!? h5 6. Be3 Nf6 7.f3 Qa5 8.Qd2 b5 with sufficient chances. 
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #59 - 05/07/10 at 16:45:01
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@ Stefan

Interesting lines. I see what you mean that the 'Clamp' shouldn't per se be a big problem, as long as Black plays a timely ...Be7 and ...c5.

@ realpolitik

This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?
« Last Edit: 05/07/10 at 18:03:40 by Michael Ayton »  
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realpolitik
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #58 - 05/07/10 at 14:46:08
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No one so far has mentioned how to deal with Berdichevskys suggestion against the f pawn capture.
1d4 Nc6 2d5 Ne5 3e4 e6 4de fe 5Nc3 (! Berdichevsky).  Black has to be careful not to get move ordered into a bad line.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #57 - 05/06/10 at 22:05:06
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(6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.g3) 8...Nh6. At first I feared that Black's set-up lacks flexibility, e.g. 9.h4 0-0 10.Ng5 with dangerous threats. But both 10...d5 11.e5 Qe8 12.Bd3 Nf5 and 10...Kh8!? 11.Nd2 e5 12.f5 Ne7, maybe intending d7-d5, seem playable.

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6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6 8 g3 0-0. Is 9 c3 an idea here, intending the same 'squash' albeit without the free tempo?

In my opinion Black has sufficient resources: 9...d5 10.e5 Ne7 11.Ng5 Nef5. 

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Final radical thought: is 6 Nf3 d5 7 e5 so daft?

An interesting proposal. The software suggests 7...Nh6 8.Bd3 Be7 9.Bxg6+ hxg6 10.Qd3 Nf5 11.g4 Nh4, about =. 
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #56 - 05/06/10 at 15:28:26
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Re linksspringer's 6 ...Bb4/[u]8 ...Nh6[/u] idea -- I think this looks interesting, since 9 f5 appears not to be a problem for Black. Of course this isn't to say that 6 ...d5 mightn't just be the best. I wondered if 9 Bd3 might be a good response to linksspringer's line, meeting ...d5 with e5 and ...Nf5 with Bxf5 sometime and trying to squash Black. This thought (plus the thought that 6 Nf3 d5 might be adequate for Black) led me to reconsider 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6 8 g3 0-0. Is 9 c3 an idea here, intending the same 'squash' albeit without the free tempo? (I suppose 9 ...Ng4 must be a serious response since the recommended 9 Qe2 is presumably intended to counter this, but then why not [u]8[/u] ...Ng4?) In either case I guess White is going (after ...d5/e5) to play any/all of moves like Na3-c2/Be3/0-0/Ng5 and pawn breaks such as c3-c4 and (after ...c5) b2-b4 (and later, h2-h4-h5?); Black meanwhile will presumably play ...Be7 or ...Bb6/...c5/...Bd7.

I haven't really got a clue as to the evaluation of this Advance French/Big Clamp kind of setup or what Black's best plan of resistance might be -- is Black just OK here or can White hope to make the space tell? [i]If[/i] a clamping plan is any good White could try it after 9 Qe2 d5 10 e5 Be7! too, but then why commit to Qe2? Final radical thought: is 6 Nf3 d5 [u]7 e5[/u] so daft?

Probably I'm talking baloney and Black's just fine. It just struck me that our 'rescue' of this opening seems thus far to have been suspiciously 'easy'! ...


« Last Edit: 05/06/10 at 17:21:59 by Michael Ayton »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #55 - 05/05/10 at 19:13:50
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[quote author=797A7076170 link=1271505369/53#53 date=1273073420]Can't claim to have done much here these five days, but I did look at one or two new lines. After [u]6 Nf3 [/u][u]d5[/u] 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 g3 Nf6 9 Bd2 Bd7!? (alternatives look worse to me, but I might be quite wrong), [u]10 e5[/u] Bc3 11 Bc3 Ne4 12 Bd3 Nc3 13 bc and then 14 Bg6 might be a bit tedious though I'm not sure how much White has here. But back on move 8 maybe Black can try 8 ...Bc3!? -- then after 9 bc Nf6 10 e5 Ne4 I imagine White hasn't much, e. g. 11 Bd3 Nc3 12 Qd2 Ne4. (If White tries tweaking the move order with 8 Bd2 then 8 ...de 9 Ne4 Bd2 should be OK?)[/quote]
Your 8...Bxc3+! looks best; I had feared 11.c4, but 11...c6 12.Bd3 Qa5+ 13.Kf1 0-0 14.Kg2 Nc5 should be almost equal, e.g. 15.cxd5 Nxd3 16.Qxd3 exd5.

Line 6...Bb4+ ... 8...d6. I have nothing concrete, just don't like to give White so many options. It's not the ideal situation for defending otb. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #54 - 05/05/10 at 17:31:30
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[quote author=42414B4D2C0 link=1271505369/53#53 date=1273073420]
I tried hard to rescue [u]6 ...Bb4[/u] 7 c3! Bc5 against 8 g3.[/quote]
Michael, 8...Nh6 could be worth examining, aiming to get into Stefan's line after 9.Ng5, but with queens on d8 and d1 iso e7 and e2. This allows some tactics based on pushing e5 after d5. Sorry to be vague, will try to post more later.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #53 - 05/05/10 at 15:30:20
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Can't claim to have done much here these five days, but I did look at one or two new lines. After [u]6 Nf3 [/u][u]d5[/u] 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 g3 Nf6 9 Bd2 Bd7!? (alternatives look worse to me, but I might be quite wrong), [u]10 e5[/u] Bc3 11 Bc3 Ne4 12 Bd3 Nc3 13 bc and then 14 Bg6 might be a bit tedious though I'm not sure how much White has here. But back on move 8 maybe Black can try 8 ...Bc3!? -- then after 9 bc Nf6 10 e5 Ne4 I imagine White hasn't much, e. g. 11 Bd3 Nc3 12 Qd2 Ne4. (If White tries tweaking the move order with 8 Bd2 then 8 ...de 9 Ne4 Bd2 should be OK?)

I tried hard to rescue [u]6 ...Bb4[/u] 7 c3! Bc5 against 8 g3. I didn't really succeed, though 8 ...d6 might not be as dismal as it perhaps looks if Black can get away with a quick ...Nf6 rather than playing passively? One fun line I looked at was 9 Nbd2 Nf6 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd7 12 Bd3 0-0 13 Bg6 hg 14 Ne4 b6 15 Bf4 Bb7 16 Qe2 Rf4!? 17 gf Qf8 -- of course, the phrase "long variation, wrong variation" may spring to mind ...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #52 - 04/30/10 at 14:23:08
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[quote]10.e5 Ne4 11.Be3 and after exchanging off Ne4 and Bc5 Black has problems on the kingside and no counterplay elsewhere.[/quote]
Admission, this daft twit was going so fast he forgot about 10 ...Ng4?? 11 Qb5!

I have to pause myself too (Bank Holiday, but for me some work!) but back next week. Your (6 ...d5) 9 ...Bd7!? is looking good, I think!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #51 - 04/30/10 at 13:59:50
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:34:33:
BUT 8 g3 d5 9 Qe2 and now 9 ...Nf6 might work?

10.e5 Ne4 11.Be3 and after exchanging off Ne4 and Bc5 Black has problems on the kingside and no counterplay elsewhere. - In the next days I have to pause. Would be nice to see new ideas, when I am back.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #50 - 04/30/10 at 13:34:33
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Agree with your (a)! -- just now had time to look at this. BUT 8 g3 d5 9 Qe2 and now 9 ...Nf6 might work?

I'd been wondering about your (b2), but what on the paradoxical 12 Bd4 (12 ...c5 13 Be3 then Bd3)? Will look at 9 ...Bd7.


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #49 - 04/30/10 at 13:27:14
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(a) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.g3 Nf6 9.e5, and with all minor pieces alive, future looks dim for Black.
(b) 6...d5(!) 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.g3 Nf6
(b1) 9.e5 Ne4 is much more solid than "a".
(b2) 9.Bd2 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 Nxe4 11.Bxg7 Rg8 12.Be5 is interesting; 9...Bd7 comes into consideration.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #48 - 04/30/10 at 10:53:55
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Hi Stefan,

Will take a look at the 6 ...Bb4/8 g3 line anon (my first thought is, can we get away with 8 ...Nf6?). But on 6 ...d5!? -- I'm sure that this is better than after 6 Bd3, but is 7 Nc3 Bb4 clearly OK for Black? How should Black handle the position if [u]8 g3[/u], then Bd2 and e5?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #47 - 04/30/10 at 09:54:50
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nf3) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5. You guys like it, hmm... I must say that I thoroughly hate it to give White c2-c3 for free, with a French structure coming!
 
8.g3 (stronger than 8.Bd3) 8...d5 (the passive 8...d6!? avoids a Francofizierung, but would you like it?) 9.Qe2 Qe7 10.Nbd2 Nh6 11.Ng5 with an advantage for White, e.g. 11...0-0 12.Nb3 Bb6 13.h4 Re8 14.a4 a5 15.e5 c5 16.h5 Nf8 17.Be3 Ba7 18.Bh3 b6 19.Nd2 Bb7 20.Bdf3 Qd7 21.b3 Nf7 22.Nxf7 Qxf7 23.h6 with a difficult decision for Black.

The precise move seems to be 6...d5! hoping for 7.Nc3 Bb4. I think Michael has already mentioned it in this thread, but I am not sure. The problem with the immediate 6...d5 is, of course, that it is committing. No guessing about the pawn structure anymore, and White can arrange his pieces in the best possible way. That said, I don't know which of the plans is best: 7.Qd3, 7.c4 or... Maybe I'd prefer 7.g3, intending to transpose to the 6...Bb4+ line after 7...Bb4+?! 8.c3 Bc5 9.Qe2. Black can try 7...Bc5, when Black's position seems playable. More interesting: 7...Bd7!?, once again hoping for 8.Nc3 Bb4!, while accepting the sacrifice could be risky for White.  
  
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