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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited (Read 52671 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #76 - 05/14/10 at 15:09:31
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Like you, I'm more interested in the combative 2 ...Ne5, but 2 ...Nb8 would have been nice if Black could set up a reasonable Pirc-/KID-like position -- just my personal preference maybe. 2 ...Nb8 3 Nf3 f5!? -- wow! I'll have to take a look at that. I guess you'd like to play 3 ...f5 after 3 c4 too?

Sophie Greilich's line -- can't White get some advantage at least by going after the Bishop with say 6 Nbd2?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #75 - 05/14/10 at 11:38:46
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I believe that 2...Nb8 is sound, but don't have the time to prove it.* And it doesn't seem urgent, since now 2...Ne5 looks OK. In the line 6.f4 ...9.0-0! there remain a few questions, and the PC gives White some advantage, but it is an unbalanced, difficult situation and should be playable.

* If anyone, it is White who has to justify his wild play. 3.e4 (3.Nf3 f5) 3...e5 4.Nf3 Bd6! (introduced into master practice in Theresa Pohl - Sophie Greilich, German Ch. U10 Wittlich 2005) 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.0-0 0-0 7.c4 Re8 8.Nc3 a5. How can Black stand worse?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #74 - 05/14/10 at 08:36:03
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[quote]2...Nb8 "must" be correct, since 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8 is correct. It is unthinkable that the queen's pawn could achieve a thing which the king's pawn can't. [/quote]

H'mmm! Rightly or wrongly, I'm a bit wary of such a generalisation, especially when both positions can be reached by both White first moves. But I'd be in a better position to assess this if I knew how Black does equalise, in either line ... All suggestions gratefully received! In the 'Bogo' line, Herzog's plan is surely not the way to go. The ...Na6/...Nfd7 plan (maybe with ...Nb6 + ...e6) is the best I can see, but it all looks rather messy (good news?!) ...

Yes, I like 6 Bf4 Nf7! and the other lines. Maybe White has a little something but these look playable Bogo positions to me. In your final line an engine suggests 14 ...d5 also, now that b4 is weakened.


  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #73 - 05/14/10 at 02:16:18
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[quote author=27242E28490 link=1271505369/72#72 date=1273793663][quote]1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.[/quote]

This is a wild idea! (Which I remember from Myers' Nimzowitsch Defence book.) But how does Black go about equalising if 5 Nf3 then Nc3?  5 ...e6 maybe? -- I haven't quite seen the idea. Moreover (and more critically perhaps?), what does Black do against the 3 Nf3/4 c4/5 e4 plan intending Nc3, h3, Bd3? Zdenek's line looks interesting, but wasn't 11 a3? a big mistake?

In the 2 ...Ne5/5 Nc3 b6!? line: when I was looking at Crouch--Karpatchev the other day I thought 9 ...Bd6!? was maybe an improvement which made the line OK for Black, and the line you give seems OK to me too. But how do you deal with 6 Bf4 Ng6 7 Bg3 Bb7 (presumably) 8 h4? Off the top of my head I have three ideas: (1) 8 ...Bb4 (9 h5 Bc3); (2) 6 Bf4 Nc6!?; (3) 6 Bf4 Qf6 7 Qh5 Ng6 8 Bc7 Bb7 -- no idea yet whether this is enough![/quote]

2...Nb8 "must" be correct, since 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8 is correct. It is unthinkable that the queen's pawn could achieve a thing which the king's pawn can't.

5...b6. There are 13 games in the database. 6.Nf3 Nf7 7.Bc4 Bb7 8.Qe2 a6 9.Bb3 (Crouch - Karpatchev, Cappelle la Grande 1993). Yes, your 9...Bd6 looks fine. The PC also likes 8...Bb4 =.

6.Bf4 Nf7! 7. Nf3 Bb4 8.Qd4 Bxc3+ 9.Qxc3 Qf6 10.Qxf6 Nxf6 11.e5 Nd5 12.Bg3 Bb7 13.0-0-0 Ne7 e.g. 14. Nd4 a6 (Riepe - Voss and Kessler - Voss, E-Mail 2003), almost =.

[b]6.f4(!) Ng6 [/b](6...Nf7 Audiffren - Labarthe, French Ch. [seniors] 2001; 7.Bd3! Bc5 8.Nf3 Bb7 9.Qe2) [b]7.Bd3 Bb7 8.Nf3 Bb4 [/b](8...Bc5) [b]9.0-0!? [/b](9.Bd2 Nf6 10.g3 Qe7 11.Qe2 0-0-0 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 d6 14.a4 a5 15.0-0 e5 16.f5 Nf8 17.b4 d5) [b]9...Nf6 10.f5 exf5 11.exf5 Ne7 [/b]with an interesting situation (+=?).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #72 - 05/13/10 at 23:34:23
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[quote]1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.[/quote]

This is a wild idea! (Which I remember from Myers' Nimzowitsch Defence book.) But how does Black go about equalising if 5 Nf3 then Nc3?  5 ...e6 maybe? -- I haven't quite seen the idea. Moreover (and more critically perhaps?), what does Black do against the 3 Nf3/4 c4/5 e4 plan intending Nc3, h3, Bd3? Zdenek's line looks interesting, but wasn't 11 a3? a big mistake?

In the 2 ...Ne5/5 Nc3 b6!? line: when I was looking at Crouch--Karpatchev the other day I thought 9 ...Bd6!? was maybe an improvement which made the line OK for Black, and the line you give seems OK to me too. But how do you deal with 6 Bf4 Ng6 7 Bg3 Bb7 (presumably) 8 h4? Off the top of my head I have three ideas: (1) 8 ...Bb4 (9 h5 Bc3); (2) 6 Bf4 Nc6!?; (3) 6 Bf4 Qf6 7 Qh5 Ng6 8 Bc7 Bb7 -- no idea yet whether this is enough!


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #71 - 05/13/10 at 22:33:47
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1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.

But I am more interested in 2...Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3. Now 5...b6 seems best: 6.f4 (6.Nf3 Nf7) 6...Ng6 7.h4 Bb7 8.h5 N6e7 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.a3! (10.Be3 Bb4) 10...Qe7 11.Be3 0-0-0 and Black has a sound position, e.g. 12.Qd2 Nf6 13.0-0-0 Qe8 14.e5 Ng4 15.Bd3 d6 =.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #70 - 05/13/10 at 20:37:40
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Maybe Black could try a flexible anti-Bd3 strategy with ...Na6/...Nc5, as in these games? ...


Kiriakov, Petr-Nisipeanu, Liviu Dieter ½-½
E91 Santo Domingo op

1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 d6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. d5 Nb8 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O Na6 9. Be3 Bd7 10. Rc1 Re8 11. a3 e6 12. dxe6 Rxe6 13. Nd4 Re8 14. f3 c6 15. Qd2 Qe7 16. Bg5 Nc5 17. Rf2 a5 18. Rd1 Red8 19. Bf1 Qf8 20. b4 axb4 21. axb4 Ne6 22. Nxe6 1/2-1/2


Molina, Jorge-Vera, Kelver 0-1
E91 Casa Argentina 3rd

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Be2 d6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. d5 Nb8 8. O-O Na6 9. Be3 Ng4 10. Bd4 e5 11. dxe6 Bxe6 12. Bxg7 Kxg7 13. Nd4 Nf6 14. Re1 Nc5 15. b4 Ncd7 16. f4 Nb6 17. c5 Nc8 18. cxd6 cxd6 19. Kh1 a5 20. b5 Nb6 21. Nxe6+ fxe6 22. Qd4 Rc8 23. Rad1 d5 24. exd5 exd5 25. Rc1 Qc7 26. Bf3 Qc5 27. Qd3 Qc4 28. Qxc4 Rxc4 29. Ne2 Rfc8 30. g3 Kf7 31. Rxc4 Rxc4 32. Rc1 Ke6 33. Kg1 Kd6 34. Rxc4 Nxc4 35. Nc3 Kc5 36. Kf2 Kd4 37. Nd1 Kd3 38. Be2+ Kd2 39. Bxc4 dxc4 40. Ne3 c3 41. Nc4+ Kd1 42. Nxa5 c2 43. Nb3 Ne4+ 44. Ke3 Nd2 0-1


Visek, Pavel-Janda, Zdenek 0-1
E61 CZE-chT1a 9697

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d6 3. c4 g6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. d5 Nb8 6. e4 Bg7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. O-O Nc5 9. Bc2 a5 10. Re1 O-O 11. a3 Bg4 12. h3 Bxf3 13. Qxf3 Nfd7 14. Bd2 Nb6 15. Qe2 a4 16. Nd1 Qd7 17. Bc3 e5 18. dxe6 Qxe6 19. Bxg7 Kxg7 20. Ne3 Rfe8 21. f4 Qf6 22. Qd2 Qxb2 23. e5 Nb3 24. Qf2 Nxa1 25. Qh4 Re6 26. Bf5 0-1


  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #69 - 05/13/10 at 09:53:58
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Hi linksspringer,
Yes, I remember it well! The thread was this one, where the line relevant to the 2 d5 Nb8!? Bogo is discussed in the first few posts:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209474437/2#2

As a summary, we looked at Wirthensohn--Herzog, "Europe"(!) 1993, as a key game (Berdichevsky game 306, p. 164). It went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 e4 Nf6 6 Nc3 Bg7 7 h3 0-0 8 Bd3 c6 9 0-0 a6 10 Re1 b5 11 cb ab 12 dc b4, unclear. B. gives Black's 10th move an exclamation mark, but we felt that 11 Bf4! is good for White.

I'm looking forward to taking a look at this again. Can Black usefully avoid this line after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Nb8, or if not can he improve on it? I've a faint memory that after our original posts I looked at a line for Black involving ...Nfd7, ...Na6 and ...N(one or the other!) c5 and thought it not too bad, but I need to have a rummage through my notes ...

[b]Edit. [/b]But thus far, I have to say, Black's plan of simply surrendering two tempi is looking pretty ropy!
« Last Edit: 05/13/10 at 11:22:35 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #68 - 05/12/10 at 20:52:35
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Michael, we discussed 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 g6!? 3.d4 Bg7 4.d5 Ne5 as a way to avoid 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.d5 Nb8 5.Bd3 g6 6.c4.
However, 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 can easily transpose to the lines we tried to avoid. It is playable, but cramped.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #67 - 05/12/10 at 20:32:52
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SWJediKnight,

Personally I think the Nimzowitsch Defence is just fine (see the several threads!), but be that as it may, it has surely enjoyed a much better reputation than the Bogo, esp. with Miles championing it! We have to remember that Burgess went so far as to attach a '?!' sign to ...fxe6 in the Bogo!

@ Stefan -- I thought I saw a few potential problems with the ...fxe6/...a6 idea too -- but there's still 3 ...Ng6!?.

And yes, there's still 2 ...Nb8!? too! I remember discussing this a few years ago with linksspringer -- will try to relocate the thread when I get a minute. I seem to recall us tentatively concluding that Black wasn't quite all right against a standard c4/e4 plan, but I've every confidence there's loads still to be discovered in these lines!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #66 - 05/10/10 at 06:22:43
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[quote author=6F6C6660010 link=1271505369/64#64 date=1273443401][quote]4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black.[/quote]
Are you reckoning that the queen-exchange variation is better or White if he's not committed to f2-f4, Stefan, or do you just distrust/dislike it in any form? And do you see any problems with 3 ...Ng6?[/quote]
3...e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 is a bit passive, White has the better pawn structure: +=. Sooner or later f2-f4 will be played, a Nc6 hampers Black's play just as a Ng6. But 4...fxe6 5.Nc3 a6 runs into other problems. Or maybe 3...c6 4.Nc3 Nf6, following a plan similar to your 3...Ng6 (if 4.Nc3 c6). It isn't obvious which of these alternatives is best. And there is still 2...Nb8.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #65 - 05/10/10 at 00:37:55
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I think the Bogo has probably been neglected/frowned upon for two main reasons:

1.  It allows transposition to the Nimzowitsch Defence with 2.e4, and that system doesn't enjoy the best of reputations (though I personally think it's better than its reputation, with both 2...d5 and 2...e5 probably conceding just a small edge)

2.  It violates the principle "don't block the c-pawn in queen's pawn openings" which probably also contributed to the neglect of the Chigorin Defence to the Queen's Gambit in the past.

I remember reading in Chess Monthly that Tony Miles only ever faced 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 once, in a simultaneous game.  Thus, I don't think 2.d5 was traditionally the objection in his time, or else some GMs would have tried it against him.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #64 - 05/09/10 at 22:16:41
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[quote]4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black.[/quote]

Are you reckoning that the queen-exchange variation is better or White if he's not committed to f2-f4, Stefan, or do you just distrust/dislike it in any form? And do you see any problems with 3 ...Ng6?

So far, our contributions here suggest that the ...fxe6 Bogo leads to interesting, double-edged (if sometime rather dangerous) positions offering reasonable chances. If White does have any clear path to advantage no one's found it. So why is the opening so disregarded? Is it that the Bogo's fine, but that this hasn't been realised because no one has examined the opening properly and Burgess et al. have just been daunted 'on general grounds' by Black's potential lack of space and the 'bad' Ng6? Or is it, at the other end of the spectrum, that there actually is a great line for White lurking somewhere that no one's found yet? Or is it, as a third possibility, that 1 d4 Nc6 has inspired no real interest because it's been believed that White has a clear route to advantage by means other than 2 d5 (does he?)? A small mystery ...

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #63 - 05/09/10 at 04:44:20
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linksspringer wrote on 05/08/10 at 12:46:47:
Another thing to consider is that after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 the knight can still retreat to c6, which gives Black a better chance to hold the endgame.
There is also 3...d6 reasoning that the knight can retreat to d7.
BTW 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3 was Keilhack/Schlenker's suggestion, Berdichevsky merely copied it.  Roll Eyes

4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black. I'd prefer 4...fxe6 5.Nc3 a6 6.f4 (or 6.Nf3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qf6 intending d6, Ne7, Qf7 etc., about =) 6....Nf7 7.Nf3 b5, about =.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #62 - 05/08/10 at 12:46:47
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Another thing to consider is that after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 the knight can still retreat to c6, which gives Black a better chance to hold the endgame.
There is also 3...d6 reasoning that the knight can retreat to d7.
BTW 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3 was Keilhack/Schlenker's suggestion, Berdichevsky merely copied it.  Roll Eyes
  
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