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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited (Read 51895 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #16 - 04/20/10 at 18:09:02
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[quote](1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7. Instead of 9.b4 I'd prefer 9.h6 g6 10.Nf3 followed by Ng5.[/quote]

Beat me to it by half an hour! This position is weird. Can it be trusted for Black? (I'd been wondering about 10 ...a6, but just off top of head.)

After 4 ...c6!? [b]5 Nf3[/b] cd I was thinking about [u]6 ed[/u] -- e.g. something like 6 ...e6 7 Nc3 Nf6 8 de fe 9 Bd3 and positional pressure coming up? All very provisional as ever, so do put me right!

Names are indeed nothing, as W. B. Yeats said, but I'm rather surprised Markovich prefers 2 e4 over 2 d5, [i]not[/i] just because I share Stefan's high opinion of the Nimzo but because after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Black conspicuously has to prove (at least in the 5 ...fe lines) s/he's not going to get a terrible position pretty quickly! Of course practical considerations might dictate choosing a less critical line and both 2 e4 and 2 Nf3 fit that bill, but after the latter White had better be prepared for 2 ...d5! -- facing the Chigorin, any Chigorin, casually is not fun! I haven't yet researched 2 ...d6!? but as yet I'm slightly sceptical about Black's three(?) main options after 3 c4 e5 4 Nc3 (4 ...Bg4, 4 ...g6, 4 ...ed); there's a thread somewhere on the last of these. Personally I'm tempted by Bogolyubov's original 2 ...g6 here, mainly 'cos I'm engaged in exploring [b]linksspringer[/b]'s suggestion of 2 ...g6 in the 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 Nimzo! Again, there's a thread on this. (I'm less keen on the 2 ...d6 Nimzo; 3 d4 Bg4!? is interesting but I'm wondering, Stefan, how you meet 4 Be3 -- do you or K&S have a recipe?)
« Last Edit: 04/20/10 at 21:49:56 by Michael Ayton »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #15 - 04/20/10 at 17:20:27
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7. Instead of 9.b4 I'd prefer 9.h6 g6 10.Nf3 followed by Ng5.

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I think 4...c6 doesn't work after 5.Nc3, e.g. 5...Nf6 6.dxc6 bxc6 7.e5 leaves the knight with no good square, and 5...Qc7 6.Nf3 Nf6 (or 6...d6 7.f5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 must be better for White) 7.Qd4 threatens 8.e5.

However, 5...Qb6! 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.a4 cxd5 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Qxd5 e6 10.Qd4 (10.Qb5 Bc5; 10.Qd3 Qc7!) 10...Qxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Nb3 Bb6, intending e5. White hasn't much.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #14 - 04/20/10 at 16:56:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/19/10 at 17:42:11:
(5...fxe6) 6.h4 looks a bit dangerous for Black, e. g. 6...d5 7.h5 N6e7 8.Nf3, White plans 9.c4 & 10.Nc3.
On the other side, 4...c6 5. Nf3 cxd5 6.Qxd5 e6 7.Qd3 Bc5 or 7.Qb3 Qc7 is a sound Sicilian structure. Probably 5.Nc3 is more critical.

I checked out the alternative 6...Bb4+: 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7 9.b4 Bxb1 10.Rxb1 is quite similar, here White's pieces are on less optimal squares but White does have the bishop-pair.  White is probably better but the whole line looks interesting.

I think 4...c6 doesn't work after 5.Nc3, e.g. 5...Nf6 6.dxc6 bxc6 7.e5 leaves the knight with no good square, and 5...Qc7 6.Nf3 Nf6 (or 6...d6 7.f5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 must be better for White) 7.Qd4 threatens 8.e5.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #13 - 04/20/10 at 16:28:38
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OK, 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 should be considered in this context. However, the reputation of the Chigorin QG 2...d5 isn't too bad. Further options: 2...d6 3.e4 Bg4 is one of the better lines of the Nimzowitsch Defence, while 3.c4 f5 may become a Krause Dutch; 2...e6 3.e4 d5 isn't exciting, but solid enough. So it may indeed depend from Black's repertoire whether 1.d4 Nc6 would be a wise practical choice, but from a theoretical perspective 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 would be widely regarded as critical. 
  
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Markovich
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #12 - 04/20/10 at 15:57:44
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/19/10 at 21:13:38:
So Markovich, you'd just transpose to the Nimzovich Defense rather than test the viability of the Bogo Defense? 

It certainly makes practical sense, but I don't think it answers the theoretical question of the soundness of the Bogo per se.


These are but names.  When a position can arise in more than one plausible way, whether it's classified under one system or under another is entirely arbitrary.

The theoretical question, "What is good play after 1.d4 Nc6?" surely must recognize 2.e4 and 2.Nf3 as possible answers.  If the purpose of this thread was to consider only 2.d5, then I'm sorry for posting off-topic, but that wasn't obvious to me.

@Stefan:  You may be right that 1.e4 Nc6 is on a par with the French and the Caro, but judging by its rate of occurrence, it seems that this point of view isn't widely accepted.  It isn't obvious to me that 2.e4 is theoretically suboptimal.  Though I have no reason to doubt your view that 2.d5 is critical, the possibility remains that 2.e4 or even 2.Nf3 is the best move.  With regard to the latter, I meant after 1.d4 Nc6, not after 1.e4 Nc6.
  

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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #11 - 04/20/10 at 10:15:15
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I think 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 gives White a slight edge, but indeed the same can probably be said for the French and Caro-Kann.  Black can also try 2.d4 e5, e.g. 3.dxe5 (3.Nf3 is a Scotch) 3...Nxe5 4.Nf3 (or 4.f4, more aggressive but potentially more weakening) when 4...Bb4+ is possible or 4...Qf6 5.Nc3 (5.Nxe5 Qxe5 6.Bd3 d5 =, see http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss07.pdf page 5) 5...Bb4 6.Bd2 Ne7 with just a small edge for White.  I'm not familiar with the line 2.d4 d5 but that too may be okay for Black.

I might have a look at the 4...c6 line myself later as I've occasionally flirted with the idea of adding 1.d4 Nc6 to my repertoire.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #10 - 04/20/10 at 06:39:51
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Markovich wrote on 04/19/10 at 20:27:34:
I hope I post on-topic when I say that my preference against this has been 2.e4, e.g. 2...d5 3.Nc3.  I guess that's nominally a different system, but I like it for White.  2.Nf3 is a fairly good answer too, eh?

Imo 1.e4 Nc6 isn't worse than the French or the Caro-Kann. On 2.d4 Black has many sound replies. 2.Nf3 e5 - Marshall Attack anybody? But after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4 the PC claims +0.40. Maybe it can be cured, but not without concrete analysis. - If someone wants to discuss the Alekhine Defence, do you reply that 2.Nc3 is a "fairly good answer"? In the Ryder Gambit, do you avoid to take on d4?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #9 - 04/19/10 at 21:13:38
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So Markovich, you'd just transpose to the Nimzovich Defense rather than test the viability of the Bogo Defense? 

It certainly makes practical sense, but I don't think it answers the theoretical question of the soundness of the Bogo per se.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #8 - 04/19/10 at 20:27:34
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I hope I post on-topic when I say that my preference against this has been 2.e4, e.g. 2...d5 3.Nc3.  I guess that's nominally a different system, but I like it for White.  2.Nf3 is a fairly good answer too, eh?
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #7 - 04/19/10 at 17:42:11
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(5...fxe6) 6.h4 looks a bit dangerous for Black, e. g. 6...d5 7.h5 N6e7 8.Nf3, White plans 9.c4 & 10.Nc3.
On the other side, 4...c6 5. Nf3 cxd5 6.Qxd5 e6 7.Qd3 Bc5 or 7.Qb3 Qc7 is a sound Sicilian structure. Probably 5.Nc3 is more critical.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #6 - 04/19/10 at 14:18:18
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Thanks again Stefan -- glad that 7 ...d5 holds up. I must get hold of Keilhack & Schlenker as soon as I get my next pay cheque! 4 ...c6!? -- h'mm, will take a look. (I assume idea is 5 c4?! e5!) 5 Nf3 might be good? -- it all looks very messy ...

6 h4!?, I'm tempted by 6 ...Bb4 or 6 ...d5, but that's just off the top of my head ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #5 - 04/19/10 at 05:01:18
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[quote author=47444E48290 link=1271505369/4#4 date=1271600595]I haven't got Pickard's CD, but most sources on the position after 2 d5 Ne5 seem omissive to the point of uselessness: the usual regurgitation! A case in point perhaps is the repeated citing of Ballmann-Bus which went (5 ...fe) 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 g3 d6 8 h4!? Bd7 and Black's said to be OK -- no one mentions that with 8 Nf3 White can steer Black into the 7 Nf3 d6 line (which looks rather passive to me though as always I stand to be corrected). Instead after 7 g3 here, in view of the weakening of the diagonal from h1 I want to play 7 ...d5 immediately! ... Anyway hope we can keep up the discussion ...[/quote]
Michael,
your 7.g3 d5! certainly is an improvement. My source is [i]1...Sc6! ...aus allen Lagen[/i] (1995) by Harald Keilhack and Rainer Schlenker, which also has 12 pages on 1.d4 Nc6. Here the theory of 7.g3 is just as described in your message. - Instead of the clumsy preparation 7.g3 and only then h4, White might try (5...fxe6) 6.h4, for example 6...Nxh4? 7.Qg4 Ng6 8.Rxh7etc.

I don't know much about 1.d4 Nc6. Apparently 4...e6 is obligatory (~40 games in the database), since there is no 4...c6 (to exchange a center pawn), but what's the refutation? Too busy to insist that it is better, but: 5.Nc3 Qb6 6.Nf3 Nf6, here 7.a4!? could be an idea. 
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #4 - 04/18/10 at 14:23:15
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Thanks Stefan -- I was hoping you'd be interested in this discussion! I really like this dynamic approach! Absolutely typical of me to have thought too conservatively ...

I haven't got Pickard's CD, but most sources on the position after 2 d5 Ne5 seem omissive to the point of uselessness: the usual regurgitation! A case in point perhaps is the repeated citing of Ballmann-Bus which went (5 ...fe) 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 g3 d6 8 h4!? Bd7 and Black's said to be OK -- no one mentions that with 8 Nf3 White can steer Black into the 7 Nf3 d6 line (which looks rather passive to me though as always I stand to be corrected). Instead after 7 g3 here, in view of the weakening of the diagonal from h1 I want to play 7 ...d5 immediately! ... Anyway hope we can keep up the discussion ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #3 - 04/17/10 at 17:13:05
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[quote author=65666C6A0B0 link=1271505369/0#0 date=1271505369]I’ve been getting interested in this, the subject of various old threads, again after winning with it in only eleven(!) moves in the Durham League a few days ago, so I thought I’d open a new thread! I’m especially interested in two positions after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 f4 Ng6 4 e4 e6 5 de: [u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3[/u] (6 Nf3 may or may not permit an advantageous 6 …d5!?) [u]Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u] (I suppose 7 …d6 is inferior, if only because of 8 g3), and [u](2) 5 …de[/u]. Modern views on this opening have, it seems, been influenced quite a bit by the comments of Burgess in [i]Beating the Indian Defences[/i] (1997) and [i]NCO[/i] (1999). In the former of these he suggests 5 …de 6 Qd8 is very little for White (which results do seem to bear out!) and prefers 6 Bd3, while in [i]NCO[/i] he famously calls the 5 …fe line dubious! Anyway, here are my tentative thoughts thus far -- I’d really welcome yours!

[u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u]

Ionescu-Yevdokimov went 8 g3 Ng4 9 Rf1 d6 10 Qe2 0-0 11 Nc3. Here Black blundered with 11 …Ne7 allowing 12 Ng5, but, although Berdichevsky calls the position unclear, I’m suspicious about Black’s play (... Ng4 seems rarely to be a good idea). Maybe 11 …d5? -- but it looks good for White to me. Since Black needs to gain space and play, why not just 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5!? (or 8 Qe2 0-0 9 g3 d5)? Here Blagosevic-Karpatchev (the only game in this line?) went 10 Nc3 [highlight]c6!? [/highlight]11 Bd2 b5 12 e5 Nf5 13 Nd1 Bd7 14 Nf2 a5 15 0-0, draw agreed. I guess White could play more aggressively here, e.g. 12 0-0-0, but then maybe 12 …d4 13 Nb1 Qb6 is reasonable (14 e5 Nf5; 14 Ng5 Be7!)?
[...] [/quote]
Or perhaps 10...e5!?

[fen]r1bq1rk1/ppp3pp/6nn/2bpp3/4PP2/2NB1NP1/PPP1Q2P/R1B1K2R[/fen]
11.f5 (11.Nxd5 c6 or 11.h3 exf4 12.Bxf4 Rxf4!?) 11...Nxf5 12. exf5 (12.Bg5 Nfe7 followed by Bg4) 12. ... e4 "comp".
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #2 - 04/17/10 at 13:40:31
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Hi Smyslov_Fan,

No, the old threads con't comment on Tisdall, who scarcely gives much analysis anyway -- just a vague suggestion of 11 Ng5 in Cole-Wall. Furthermore he appears to contradict himself -- suggesting in one place that 7 ...Bb4 (in Crouch-Barle) may be wrong because it provokes c2-c3 but in another place that 8 Nc3 might be the right reply anyway!

But, though I used to think the 5 ...fe lines awful, now I'm not so sure. The plan of ...0-0 and ...d5 (Blagosevic-Karpatchev) might be worth a serious look? (And yes, be all this as it may, things are damn complex!) Moreover after 5 ...de 6 Bd3, Burgess merely cites Klaric-Dlugy, without mentioning the (earlier or later) ...Bd7 possibility.
  
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