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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited (Read 51047 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #91 - 05/19/10 at 15:40:51
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Thanks for this Stefan! It just goes to show once again, ChessPub leads the way! ...
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #90 - 05/19/10 at 13:12:39
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Boris Avrukh (1.d4 Volume Two, Glasgow 2010) gives 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.f4 Ng6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nf3 6...Bc5?! 7.Nc3 Nh6 8.f5 Nh4 9.Ng5 ("!N"), which is indeed good for White. But he ignores 6...b6, 6...Bb4+ and 6...d5.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #89 - 05/15/10 at 13:48:03
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Absolutely no probs Stefan! Yes, there must be plenty of alternatives. I'll post some others I've thought of when I get a mo. At present I'm about my other current obsession -- researching Bach cantatas!
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #88 - 05/15/10 at 13:17:51
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[quote author=62616B6D0C0 link=1271505369/87#87 date=1273915374]The suggestion of 9 …Nfd7!? instead of Herzog’s 9 …a6 is just what I’d thought earlier might be Black’s best (#74, 69)![/quote]
Michael, I've overlooked that you had already recommended ...Nfd7 - my apologies. It seems reliable enough for an otb game or two. W. - Herzog isn't much worse, and there are perhaps 30-50 other good alternatives for Black along the way. So for the rare 2...Nb8 game, there is no lack of options.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #87 - 05/15/10 at 09:22:54
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I emphatically do not think that 2 …Nb8 should be disregarded! – I was merely summing existing opinion. But nor do I see my concerns as ‘just’ subtleties, if by that is meant my being over-finicky! It’s always struck me that it’s rather unclear just what sort of  “+=” these positions represent, that they’re perhaps underexplored and that new ideas might be found here and a better assessment reached – just what a site like this exists for, innit?!

I’d been worried about 6 …Bg4 because of 7 h3. But I notice that Black got away with it in Lahtinen-Lundquist, Finnish Ch. 1994, which went: 7 …Bf3 8 Qf3 Bg7 9 Bd3 Nbd7 10 Qe2 c6 11 0-0 Qc7 12 Be3 0-0. Reliable? – I notice that Black did not castle before White did …

The suggestion of 9 …Nfd7!? instead of Herzog’s 9 …a6 is just what I’d thought earlier might be Black’s best (#74, 69)! It’d be good to test this in some games. Of course, the more reliable this idea may come to seem, the less Herzog is to be criticised, perhaps, for omitting to play …Bg4!

I haven’t looked at 8 …e5 9 Be3 Nh5 yet – interesting. I notice [u]9 g4[/u] has been played with success.


@ realpolitik

Point taken. 3 …Ng6 looks rather artificial and I don’t know whether it can be rescued from the line given by K&S (which isn’t in Berdichevsky’s book). But don’t you think the 3 e4 e6 4 de fe 5 Nc3 b6!? line is reasonable? Meanwhile, after 2 Nf3, 2 …d5 isn’t the only possibility; 2 ...d6, for example, might lead to the positions we've been discussing.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #86 - 05/15/10 at 04:18:38
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.h3 Nc6 7.d5 Nb8 8.Bd3 "+=" Nunn. 8...c6 (not too bad: 8...e5 9.Be3 Nh5 Bystryakova - Gaprindashvili, St. Petersburg 2007) 9.0-0. The += is probably fair. But the flexible 9...Nfd7(!) looks good, followed by Na6-c5 and an eventual a5.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #85 - 05/15/10 at 02:38:24
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I would have thought that all of those sorts of lines would fall within "+=".  That's what Nunn (in NCO) thought of the version where White gets to play h3 and Bd3, for example.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #84 - 05/15/10 at 00:18:28
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[quote author=282B2127460 link=1271505369/82#82 date=1273873700]Obviously I want to think this is so! But I am confused! How early do you feel Black can/should play ...Bg4 if allowed (or to put the same thing another way, how early could White profitably prevent it with h3)? In one way it seems logical to think Black should play ...Bg4 immediately in reply to e4, but I'm often worried that if White hasn't developed his KB, h3 might be a strong reply (and also maybe Qb3). So, for example, in the next game that Berdichevsky gives -- Ovsejevitsch-Istratescu, which went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 e4 Nf6 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 Bg4! -- should Black have played 6 ...Bg4, and given that he played 6 ...Nf6 instead, why wasn't 7 h3 and 8 Bd3 strong?[/quote]
I am confused, too. While I only claim that 2...Nb8 is reasonable, certainly better than +/- or "disregarded" (your word in post #64), you are worrying about such subtleties. After 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 3.c4 d6 4.Nc3 g6 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.e4 (reaching Wirthensohn - Herzog), Black now has 6...Bg4, as in e.g. Grünfeld - Alekhine, Margate 1923 (=, 32).
If White combines h3 & Be2, we enter a KI side-line (Bogolyubov - Yates; Balashov - Kuzmin etc.) where Black's small "sin" to have played Nc6 before e5 isn't too tragic because of the slower h2-h3.
It may be a concession to play Bg4 early, but on the other side White has made a concession himself (d4-d5) which saves Black some work (e.g. Bg4, Nfd7, Nc6 puts d4 under pressure, hoping for d4-d5).
Since I am not the greatest KI expert, you should rather consult a book. The problems seem relatively minor to me. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #83 - 05/14/10 at 22:05:25
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[quote author=3C3F3533520 link=1271505369/59#59 date=1273250701]@ Stefan

Interesting lines. I see what you mean that the 'Clamp' shouldn't per se be a big problem, as long as Black plays a timely ...Be7 and ...c5.

@ realpolitik

This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?[/quote]

After 3...Ng6 there is no need for white to obligingly weaken the g1-a7 diagonal with 4 f4. Berdichevsky (or Keilhack and Schlenker) seems to think white is better after 4 Nf3. I would like if this line worked but the whole thing seems a bit fishy to me. Even the simple 2.Nf3 transposing to a chigorin might be enough for a slight edge see Kramnik-Short from last year (or was it the year before?)
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #82 - 05/14/10 at 21:48:20
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Obviously I want to think this is so! But I am confused! How early do you feel Black can/should play ...Bg4 if allowed (or to put the same thing another way, how early could White profitably prevent it with h3)? In one way it seems logical to think Black should play ...Bg4 immediately in reply to e4, but I'm often worried that if White hasn't developed his KB, h3 might be a strong reply (and also maybe Qb3). So, for example, in the next game that Berdichevsky gives -- Ovsejevitsch-Istratescu, which went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 Nc3 Bg7 6 e4 Nf6 7 Be2 0-0 8 0-0 Bg4! -- should Black have played 6 ...Bg4, and given that he played 6 ...Nf6 instead, why wasn't 7 h3 and 8 Bd3 strong?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #81 - 05/14/10 at 21:27:21
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But transposing to various KI lines (e.g. Bg4 in Herzog's game) does prove that "Nb8 must be correct", no? May I quote you regarding Nb8: "I seem to recall us tentatively concluding that Black wasn't quite all right [...]". An early Bg4 in Wirthensohn - Herzog is good enough for all practical (and theoretical) purposes, I think.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #80 - 05/14/10 at 20:32:54
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I think we might be talking slightly at cross-purposes Stefan -- sorry if I created some confusion! I'm interested in this discussion/thread essentially for the very simple reason that I'm interested in 1 d4 Nc6!? full stop, not because I'm looking to create KID/Pirc-style positions with ...Nb8 wherever possible. (And much less because I'm wanting you or anyone to list all such possible transpositions! -- a fascinating project that would certainly be for another thread, if not another lifetime ...) Indeed I don't think it's a good idea to 'fixate' on particular setups like that even though we all of course have our favourites. Much better to keep flexible! -- and we chessplayers have to be undogmatic and open-minded, do we not?

That, I guess, is why I'm interested in both Black second moves after 2 d5; and I cited the W.--H. game (here and in the other thread) just because I thought -- rightly or wrongly! -- that the d5/e4/c4/Bd3 setup posed the biggest challenge to 2 d5 Nb8!?, and this game is cited in Berdichevsky's book. (I also had a strong 'vested interest' in this setup as it can arise from my favourite Nimzowitsch Defence [with 2 Nf3 d6], and indeed other openings.)

I haven't explored 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Nb8 much yet, but this far it seems to me that what's fascinating is not just the transpositions that are possible from this position, but also the range of setups closely analogous to other more mainstream openings (near-transpositions, if you like) that the players can, with their various third moves, start to construct between them.



  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #79 - 05/14/10 at 19:43:03
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I do not claim that e5 & Bd6 is best, or Nf6-g8. Really, there are so many alternatives! I fail to see why Wirthensohn - Herzog matters. If you prefer KI or Pirc set-ups, there are many ideas where Nb8 is fine. In the W.-H. game, 11.Bf4 cxd5 12.exd5 bxc4 13.Bxc4 Nbd7 14.Nd4 Bb7 15.Nc6 Bxc6 16.dxc6 Rc8 17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.Bxd5 Ne5 19.Rc1 e6 20.Be4 may be +=. Btw, in that game White plays h3 too late, inviting Bg4, in the style of a Smyslow KI.

Benkner - Uhlmann, Leipzig 1953, was a standard KI with Nc6, d4-d5, Nb8, followed by Ne8 and f7-f5. There are 50 games in the database where in the main line KI (e5/d5/Nc6-e7) Black plays Nc6-b8 instead. Score: 53%-47%. It's a bit passive, but note that with Qe7, a5, b6, Na6/d7 you can control c5 four times - no fast c4-c5 anymore. Also interesting is Uhlmann's specialty e5&c5. He combines it with the more dynamic Nc6-e7 though.

And don't forget that you can play Ng8-e7. There is a good chance to transpose to a main line KI with Nf6-d7, just by playing Ng8-e7 and Nb8-d7. Please don't urge me to list all the Pirc versions available by transposition...
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #78 - 05/14/10 at 17:12:31
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Nice one! -- as often, I was a bit too hasty. Incidentally I noticed this game before out of the corner of my eye, but seeing the players' ages and ...Bd6 failed to take it seriously -- big mistake! In a way this line makes the whole thing quite attractive, since a lot of Whites (at least at my level!) might go after the Bishop and so give black a decent Tango-style position.

Will take a look at 3 Nf3 f5!? (I guess the challenge here is to avoid being a tempo down on a Leningrad or 2 Nf3/3 d5 Dutch ...). [b]Edit:[/b] maybe 3 Nf3 [u]Nf6[/u] 4 c4 e6 is worth a look (5 Nc3 Bb4 (or Bc5))? 3 c4 e5!? 4 Nf3 and I guess 4 ...e4 and 4 ...Bb4 both make some sense?
« Last Edit: 05/14/10 at 18:40:27 by Michael Ayton »  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #77 - 05/14/10 at 15:48:09
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[quote author=7F7C7670110 link=1271505369/76#76 date=1273849771]Sophie Greilich's line -- can't White get some advantage at least by going after the Bishop with say 6 Nbd2?[/quote]
6.Nbd2 0-0 7.Nc4 Bc5 8.Ncxe5 Re8 9.0-0 (9.Bg5 h6) 9...d6 10.Nc4 Nxe4 11.Bxe4 Rxe4 12.Qd3 Bf5 13.b4 (13.Ng5 Rf4) 13...Bb6 =.
3.c4 e5 would be an option, hoping to get rid of the Bf8.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #76 - 05/14/10 at 15:09:31
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Like you, I'm more interested in the combative 2 ...Ne5, but 2 ...Nb8 would have been nice if Black could set up a reasonable Pirc-/KID-like position -- just my personal preference maybe. 2 ...Nb8 3 Nf3 f5!? -- wow! I'll have to take a look at that. I guess you'd like to play 3 ...f5 after 3 c4 too?

Sophie Greilich's line -- can't White get some advantage at least by going after the Bishop with say 6 Nbd2?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #75 - 05/14/10 at 11:38:46
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I believe that 2...Nb8 is sound, but don't have the time to prove it.* And it doesn't seem urgent, since now 2...Ne5 looks OK. In the line 6.f4 ...9.0-0! there remain a few questions, and the PC gives White some advantage, but it is an unbalanced, difficult situation and should be playable.

* If anyone, it is White who has to justify his wild play. 3.e4 (3.Nf3 f5) 3...e5 4.Nf3 Bd6! (introduced into master practice in Theresa Pohl - Sophie Greilich, German Ch. U10 Wittlich 2005) 5.Bd3 Nf6 6.0-0 0-0 7.c4 Re8 8.Nc3 a5. How can Black stand worse?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #74 - 05/14/10 at 08:36:03
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[quote]2...Nb8 "must" be correct, since 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8 is correct. It is unthinkable that the queen's pawn could achieve a thing which the king's pawn can't. [/quote]

H'mmm! Rightly or wrongly, I'm a bit wary of such a generalisation, especially when both positions can be reached by both White first moves. But I'd be in a better position to assess this if I knew how Black does equalise, in either line ... All suggestions gratefully received! In the 'Bogo' line, Herzog's plan is surely not the way to go. The ...Na6/...Nfd7 plan (maybe with ...Nb6 + ...e6) is the best I can see, but it all looks rather messy (good news?!) ...

Yes, I like 6 Bf4 Nf7! and the other lines. Maybe White has a little something but these look playable Bogo positions to me. In your final line an engine suggests 14 ...d5 also, now that b4 is weakened.


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #73 - 05/14/10 at 02:16:18
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[quote author=27242E28490 link=1271505369/72#72 date=1273793663][quote]1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.[/quote]

This is a wild idea! (Which I remember from Myers' Nimzowitsch Defence book.) But how does Black go about equalising if 5 Nf3 then Nc3?  5 ...e6 maybe? -- I haven't quite seen the idea. Moreover (and more critically perhaps?), what does Black do against the 3 Nf3/4 c4/5 e4 plan intending Nc3, h3, Bd3? Zdenek's line looks interesting, but wasn't 11 a3? a big mistake?

In the 2 ...Ne5/5 Nc3 b6!? line: when I was looking at Crouch--Karpatchev the other day I thought 9 ...Bd6!? was maybe an improvement which made the line OK for Black, and the line you give seems OK to me too. But how do you deal with 6 Bf4 Ng6 7 Bg3 Bb7 (presumably) 8 h4? Off the top of my head I have three ideas: (1) 8 ...Bb4 (9 h5 Bc3); (2) 6 Bf4 Nc6!?; (3) 6 Bf4 Qf6 7 Qh5 Ng6 8 Bc7 Bb7 -- no idea yet whether this is enough![/quote]

2...Nb8 "must" be correct, since 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Ng8 is correct. It is unthinkable that the queen's pawn could achieve a thing which the king's pawn can't.

5...b6. There are 13 games in the database. 6.Nf3 Nf7 7.Bc4 Bb7 8.Qe2 a6 9.Bb3 (Crouch - Karpatchev, Cappelle la Grande 1993). Yes, your 9...Bd6 looks fine. The PC also likes 8...Bb4 =.

6.Bf4 Nf7! 7. Nf3 Bb4 8.Qd4 Bxc3+ 9.Qxc3 Qf6 10.Qxf6 Nxf6 11.e5 Nd5 12.Bg3 Bb7 13.0-0-0 Ne7 e.g. 14. Nd4 a6 (Riepe - Voss and Kessler - Voss, E-Mail 2003), almost =.

[b]6.f4(!) Ng6 [/b](6...Nf7 Audiffren - Labarthe, French Ch. [seniors] 2001; 7.Bd3! Bc5 8.Nf3 Bb7 9.Qe2) [b]7.Bd3 Bb7 8.Nf3 Bb4 [/b](8...Bc5) [b]9.0-0!? [/b](9.Bd2 Nf6 10.g3 Qe7 11.Qe2 0-0-0 12.a3 Bxc3 13.Bxc3 d6 14.a4 a5 15.0-0 e5 16.f5 Nf8 17.b4 d5) [b]9...Nf6 10.f5 exf5 11.exf5 Ne7 [/b]with an interesting situation (+=?).
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #72 - 05/13/10 at 23:34:23
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[quote]1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.[/quote]

This is a wild idea! (Which I remember from Myers' Nimzowitsch Defence book.) But how does Black go about equalising if 5 Nf3 then Nc3?  5 ...e6 maybe? -- I haven't quite seen the idea. Moreover (and more critically perhaps?), what does Black do against the 3 Nf3/4 c4/5 e4 plan intending Nc3, h3, Bd3? Zdenek's line looks interesting, but wasn't 11 a3? a big mistake?

In the 2 ...Ne5/5 Nc3 b6!? line: when I was looking at Crouch--Karpatchev the other day I thought 9 ...Bd6!? was maybe an improvement which made the line OK for Black, and the line you give seems OK to me too. But how do you deal with 6 Bf4 Ng6 7 Bg3 Bb7 (presumably) 8 h4? Off the top of my head I have three ideas: (1) 8 ...Bb4 (9 h5 Bc3); (2) 6 Bf4 Nc6!?; (3) 6 Bf4 Qf6 7 Qh5 Ng6 8 Bc7 Bb7 -- no idea yet whether this is enough!


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #71 - 05/13/10 at 22:33:47
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1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 must be correct, e.g. 3.e4 Nf6 4.e5 Ng8 etc.

But I am more interested in 2...Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3. Now 5...b6 seems best: 6.f4 (6.Nf3 Nf7) 6...Ng6 7.h4 Bb7 8.h5 N6e7 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.a3! (10.Be3 Bb4) 10...Qe7 11.Be3 0-0-0 and Black has a sound position, e.g. 12.Qd2 Nf6 13.0-0-0 Qe8 14.e5 Ng4 15.Bd3 d6 =.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #70 - 05/13/10 at 20:37:40
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Maybe Black could try a flexible anti-Bd3 strategy with ...Na6/...Nc5, as in these games? ...


Kiriakov, Petr-Nisipeanu, Liviu Dieter ½-½
E91 Santo Domingo op

1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. e4 d6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. d5 Nb8 6. Nf3 Nf6 7. Be2 O-O 8. O-O Na6 9. Be3 Bd7 10. Rc1 Re8 11. a3 e6 12. dxe6 Rxe6 13. Nd4 Re8 14. f3 c6 15. Qd2 Qe7 16. Bg5 Nc5 17. Rf2 a5 18. Rd1 Red8 19. Bf1 Qf8 20. b4 axb4 21. axb4 Ne6 22. Nxe6 1/2-1/2


Molina, Jorge-Vera, Kelver 0-1
E91 Casa Argentina 3rd

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 O-O 5. Be2 d6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. d5 Nb8 8. O-O Na6 9. Be3 Ng4 10. Bd4 e5 11. dxe6 Bxe6 12. Bxg7 Kxg7 13. Nd4 Nf6 14. Re1 Nc5 15. b4 Ncd7 16. f4 Nb6 17. c5 Nc8 18. cxd6 cxd6 19. Kh1 a5 20. b5 Nb6 21. Nxe6+ fxe6 22. Qd4 Rc8 23. Rad1 d5 24. exd5 exd5 25. Rc1 Qc7 26. Bf3 Qc5 27. Qd3 Qc4 28. Qxc4 Rxc4 29. Ne2 Rfc8 30. g3 Kf7 31. Rxc4 Rxc4 32. Rc1 Ke6 33. Kg1 Kd6 34. Rxc4 Nxc4 35. Nc3 Kc5 36. Kf2 Kd4 37. Nd1 Kd3 38. Be2+ Kd2 39. Bxc4 dxc4 40. Ne3 c3 41. Nc4+ Kd1 42. Nxa5 c2 43. Nb3 Ne4+ 44. Ke3 Nd2 0-1


Visek, Pavel-Janda, Zdenek 0-1
E61 CZE-chT1a 9697

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d6 3. c4 g6 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. d5 Nb8 6. e4 Bg7 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. O-O Nc5 9. Bc2 a5 10. Re1 O-O 11. a3 Bg4 12. h3 Bxf3 13. Qxf3 Nfd7 14. Bd2 Nb6 15. Qe2 a4 16. Nd1 Qd7 17. Bc3 e5 18. dxe6 Qxe6 19. Bxg7 Kxg7 20. Ne3 Rfe8 21. f4 Qf6 22. Qd2 Qxb2 23. e5 Nb3 24. Qf2 Nxa1 25. Qh4 Re6 26. Bf5 0-1


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #69 - 05/13/10 at 09:53:58
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Hi linksspringer,
Yes, I remember it well! The thread was this one, where the line relevant to the 2 d5 Nb8!? Bogo is discussed in the first few posts:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1209474437/2#2

As a summary, we looked at Wirthensohn--Herzog, "Europe"(!) 1993, as a key game (Berdichevsky game 306, p. 164). It went 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 d5 Nb8 4 c4 g6 5 e4 Nf6 6 Nc3 Bg7 7 h3 0-0 8 Bd3 c6 9 0-0 a6 10 Re1 b5 11 cb ab 12 dc b4, unclear. B. gives Black's 10th move an exclamation mark, but we felt that 11 Bf4! is good for White.

I'm looking forward to taking a look at this again. Can Black usefully avoid this line after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Nb8, or if not can he improve on it? I've a faint memory that after our original posts I looked at a line for Black involving ...Nfd7, ...Na6 and ...N(one or the other!) c5 and thought it not too bad, but I need to have a rummage through my notes ...

[b]Edit. [/b]But thus far, I have to say, Black's plan of simply surrendering two tempi is looking pretty ropy!
« Last Edit: 05/13/10 at 11:22:35 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #68 - 05/12/10 at 20:52:35
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Michael, we discussed 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 g6!? 3.d4 Bg7 4.d5 Ne5 as a way to avoid 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.d5 Nb8 5.Bd3 g6 6.c4.
However, 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Nb8 can easily transpose to the lines we tried to avoid. It is playable, but cramped.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #67 - 05/12/10 at 20:32:52
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SWJediKnight,

Personally I think the Nimzowitsch Defence is just fine (see the several threads!), but be that as it may, it has surely enjoyed a much better reputation than the Bogo, esp. with Miles championing it! We have to remember that Burgess went so far as to attach a '?!' sign to ...fxe6 in the Bogo!

@ Stefan -- I thought I saw a few potential problems with the ...fxe6/...a6 idea too -- but there's still 3 ...Ng6!?.

And yes, there's still 2 ...Nb8!? too! I remember discussing this a few years ago with linksspringer -- will try to relocate the thread when I get a minute. I seem to recall us tentatively concluding that Black wasn't quite all right against a standard c4/e4 plan, but I've every confidence there's loads still to be discovered in these lines!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #66 - 05/10/10 at 06:22:43
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[quote author=6F6C6660010 link=1271505369/64#64 date=1273443401][quote]4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black.[/quote]
Are you reckoning that the queen-exchange variation is better or White if he's not committed to f2-f4, Stefan, or do you just distrust/dislike it in any form? And do you see any problems with 3 ...Ng6?[/quote]
3...e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 is a bit passive, White has the better pawn structure: +=. Sooner or later f2-f4 will be played, a Nc6 hampers Black's play just as a Ng6. But 4...fxe6 5.Nc3 a6 runs into other problems. Or maybe 3...c6 4.Nc3 Nf6, following a plan similar to your 3...Ng6 (if 4.Nc3 c6). It isn't obvious which of these alternatives is best. And there is still 2...Nb8.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #65 - 05/10/10 at 00:37:55
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I think the Bogo has probably been neglected/frowned upon for two main reasons:

1.  It allows transposition to the Nimzowitsch Defence with 2.e4, and that system doesn't enjoy the best of reputations (though I personally think it's better than its reputation, with both 2...d5 and 2...e5 probably conceding just a small edge)

2.  It violates the principle "don't block the c-pawn in queen's pawn openings" which probably also contributed to the neglect of the Chigorin Defence to the Queen's Gambit in the past.

I remember reading in Chess Monthly that Tony Miles only ever faced 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 once, in a simultaneous game.  Thus, I don't think 2.d5 was traditionally the objection in his time, or else some GMs would have tried it against him.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #64 - 05/09/10 at 22:16:41
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[quote]4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black.[/quote]

Are you reckoning that the queen-exchange variation is better or White if he's not committed to f2-f4, Stefan, or do you just distrust/dislike it in any form? And do you see any problems with 3 ...Ng6?

So far, our contributions here suggest that the ...fxe6 Bogo leads to interesting, double-edged (if sometime rather dangerous) positions offering reasonable chances. If White does have any clear path to advantage no one's found it. So why is the opening so disregarded? Is it that the Bogo's fine, but that this hasn't been realised because no one has examined the opening properly and Burgess et al. have just been daunted 'on general grounds' by Black's potential lack of space and the 'bad' Ng6? Or is it, at the other end of the spectrum, that there actually is a great line for White lurking somewhere that no one's found yet? Or is it, as a third possibility, that 1 d4 Nc6 has inspired no real interest because it's been believed that White has a clear route to advantage by means other than 2 d5 (does he?)? A small mystery ...

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #63 - 05/09/10 at 04:44:20
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linksspringer wrote on 05/08/10 at 12:46:47:
Another thing to consider is that after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 the knight can still retreat to c6, which gives Black a better chance to hold the endgame.
There is also 3...d6 reasoning that the knight can retreat to d7.
BTW 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3 was Keilhack/Schlenker's suggestion, Berdichevsky merely copied it.  Roll Eyes

4...dxe6 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 isn't attractive for Black. I'd prefer 4...fxe6 5.Nc3 a6 6.f4 (or 6.Nf3 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Qf6 intending d6, Ne7, Qf7 etc., about =) 6....Nf7 7.Nf3 b5, about =.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #62 - 05/08/10 at 12:46:47
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Another thing to consider is that after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 dxe6 the knight can still retreat to c6, which gives Black a better chance to hold the endgame.
There is also 3...d6 reasoning that the knight can retreat to d7.
BTW 3.e4 e6 4.dxe6 fxe6 5.Nc3 was Keilhack/Schlenker's suggestion, Berdichevsky merely copied it.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #61 - 05/08/10 at 01:06:15
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Thanks Stefan -- another interesting line. It gave me three thoughts: (1) maybe White could try 6 Nf3 here instead of 6 Be3? -- but it looks to me no better; (2) what, I wonder, happens after 3 ...Ng6!? [u]4 Nf3[/u] -- should Black try 4 ...c6 here too?; (3) after either knight move Black could try 4 ...e5 5 de [u]de[/u] -- since this presumably can't be better for White than the version with f2-f4, hopefully we'll never be able to talk about this move-order trick refuting the Bogo!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #60 - 05/07/10 at 21:45:53
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[quote author=6D6E6462030 link=1271505369/59#59 date=1273250701]This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?[/quote]
Michael, after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.e4 Ng6, there is also the more flexible 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Nf3!? (5.f4). The lesser evil might be 4...c6, for example 5.h4!? h5 6. Be3 Nf6 7.f3 Qa5 8.Qd2 b5 with sufficient chances. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #59 - 05/07/10 at 16:45:01
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@ Stefan

Interesting lines. I see what you mean that the 'Clamp' shouldn't per se be a big problem, as long as Black plays a timely ...Be7 and ...c5.

@ realpolitik

This is a reference to Crouch--Karpatchev, Cappelle La Grande 93, game 245 in Berdichevsky's book (p. 130). I should have mentioned earlier that I'd been 'trusting' that [u]3 ...Ng6[/u] 4 f4 e6 (or, more cunningly, 4 ...e5) evades the danger. Is there any problem with this?
« Last Edit: 05/07/10 at 18:03:40 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #58 - 05/07/10 at 14:46:08
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No one so far has mentioned how to deal with Berdichevskys suggestion against the f pawn capture.
1d4 Nc6 2d5 Ne5 3e4 e6 4de fe 5Nc3 (! Berdichevsky).  Black has to be careful not to get move ordered into a bad line.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #57 - 05/06/10 at 22:05:06
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(6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.g3) 8...Nh6. At first I feared that Black's set-up lacks flexibility, e.g. 9.h4 0-0 10.Ng5 with dangerous threats. But both 10...d5 11.e5 Qe8 12.Bd3 Nf5 and 10...Kh8!? 11.Nd2 e5 12.f5 Ne7, maybe intending d7-d5, seem playable.

Quote:
6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6 8 g3 0-0. Is 9 c3 an idea here, intending the same 'squash' albeit without the free tempo?

In my opinion Black has sufficient resources: 9...d5 10.e5 Ne7 11.Ng5 Nef5. 

Quote:
Final radical thought: is 6 Nf3 d5 7 e5 so daft?

An interesting proposal. The software suggests 7...Nh6 8.Bd3 Be7 9.Bxg6+ hxg6 10.Qd3 Nf5 11.g4 Nh4, about =. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #56 - 05/06/10 at 15:28:26
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Re linksspringer's 6 ...Bb4/[u]8 ...Nh6[/u] idea -- I think this looks interesting, since 9 f5 appears not to be a problem for Black. Of course this isn't to say that 6 ...d5 mightn't just be the best. I wondered if 9 Bd3 might be a good response to linksspringer's line, meeting ...d5 with e5 and ...Nf5 with Bxf5 sometime and trying to squash Black. This thought (plus the thought that 6 Nf3 d5 might be adequate for Black) led me to reconsider 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6 8 g3 0-0. Is 9 c3 an idea here, intending the same 'squash' albeit without the free tempo? (I suppose 9 ...Ng4 must be a serious response since the recommended 9 Qe2 is presumably intended to counter this, but then why not [u]8[/u] ...Ng4?) In either case I guess White is going (after ...d5/e5) to play any/all of moves like Na3-c2/Be3/0-0/Ng5 and pawn breaks such as c3-c4 and (after ...c5) b2-b4 (and later, h2-h4-h5?); Black meanwhile will presumably play ...Be7 or ...Bb6/...c5/...Bd7.

I haven't really got a clue as to the evaluation of this Advance French/Big Clamp kind of setup or what Black's best plan of resistance might be -- is Black just OK here or can White hope to make the space tell? [i]If[/i] a clamping plan is any good White could try it after 9 Qe2 d5 10 e5 Be7! too, but then why commit to Qe2? Final radical thought: is 6 Nf3 d5 [u]7 e5[/u] so daft?

Probably I'm talking baloney and Black's just fine. It just struck me that our 'rescue' of this opening seems thus far to have been suspiciously 'easy'! ...


« Last Edit: 05/06/10 at 17:21:59 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #55 - 05/05/10 at 19:13:50
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[quote author=797A7076170 link=1271505369/53#53 date=1273073420]Can't claim to have done much here these five days, but I did look at one or two new lines. After [u]6 Nf3 [/u][u]d5[/u] 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 g3 Nf6 9 Bd2 Bd7!? (alternatives look worse to me, but I might be quite wrong), [u]10 e5[/u] Bc3 11 Bc3 Ne4 12 Bd3 Nc3 13 bc and then 14 Bg6 might be a bit tedious though I'm not sure how much White has here. But back on move 8 maybe Black can try 8 ...Bc3!? -- then after 9 bc Nf6 10 e5 Ne4 I imagine White hasn't much, e. g. 11 Bd3 Nc3 12 Qd2 Ne4. (If White tries tweaking the move order with 8 Bd2 then 8 ...de 9 Ne4 Bd2 should be OK?)[/quote]
Your 8...Bxc3+! looks best; I had feared 11.c4, but 11...c6 12.Bd3 Qa5+ 13.Kf1 0-0 14.Kg2 Nc5 should be almost equal, e.g. 15.cxd5 Nxd3 16.Qxd3 exd5.

Line 6...Bb4+ ... 8...d6. I have nothing concrete, just don't like to give White so many options. It's not the ideal situation for defending otb. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #54 - 05/05/10 at 17:31:30
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[quote author=42414B4D2C0 link=1271505369/53#53 date=1273073420]
I tried hard to rescue [u]6 ...Bb4[/u] 7 c3! Bc5 against 8 g3.[/quote]
Michael, 8...Nh6 could be worth examining, aiming to get into Stefan's line after 9.Ng5, but with queens on d8 and d1 iso e7 and e2. This allows some tactics based on pushing e5 after d5. Sorry to be vague, will try to post more later.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #53 - 05/05/10 at 15:30:20
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Can't claim to have done much here these five days, but I did look at one or two new lines. After [u]6 Nf3 [/u][u]d5[/u] 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 g3 Nf6 9 Bd2 Bd7!? (alternatives look worse to me, but I might be quite wrong), [u]10 e5[/u] Bc3 11 Bc3 Ne4 12 Bd3 Nc3 13 bc and then 14 Bg6 might be a bit tedious though I'm not sure how much White has here. But back on move 8 maybe Black can try 8 ...Bc3!? -- then after 9 bc Nf6 10 e5 Ne4 I imagine White hasn't much, e. g. 11 Bd3 Nc3 12 Qd2 Ne4. (If White tries tweaking the move order with 8 Bd2 then 8 ...de 9 Ne4 Bd2 should be OK?)

I tried hard to rescue [u]6 ...Bb4[/u] 7 c3! Bc5 against 8 g3. I didn't really succeed, though 8 ...d6 might not be as dismal as it perhaps looks if Black can get away with a quick ...Nf6 rather than playing passively? One fun line I looked at was 9 Nbd2 Nf6 10 e5 de 11 fe Nd7 12 Bd3 0-0 13 Bg6 hg 14 Ne4 b6 15 Bf4 Bb7 16 Qe2 Rf4!? 17 gf Qf8 -- of course, the phrase "long variation, wrong variation" may spring to mind ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #52 - 04/30/10 at 14:23:08
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[quote]10.e5 Ne4 11.Be3 and after exchanging off Ne4 and Bc5 Black has problems on the kingside and no counterplay elsewhere.[/quote]
Admission, this daft twit was going so fast he forgot about 10 ...Ng4?? 11 Qb5!

I have to pause myself too (Bank Holiday, but for me some work!) but back next week. Your (6 ...d5) 9 ...Bd7!? is looking good, I think!
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #51 - 04/30/10 at 13:59:50
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/30/10 at 13:34:33:
BUT 8 g3 d5 9 Qe2 and now 9 ...Nf6 might work?

10.e5 Ne4 11.Be3 and after exchanging off Ne4 and Bc5 Black has problems on the kingside and no counterplay elsewhere. - In the next days I have to pause. Would be nice to see new ideas, when I am back.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #50 - 04/30/10 at 13:34:33
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Agree with your (a)! -- just now had time to look at this. BUT 8 g3 d5 9 Qe2 and now 9 ...Nf6 might work?

I'd been wondering about your (b2), but what on the paradoxical 12 Bd4 (12 ...c5 13 Be3 then Bd3)? Will look at 9 ...Bd7.


  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #49 - 04/30/10 at 13:27:14
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(a) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.g3 Nf6 9.e5, and with all minor pieces alive, future looks dim for Black.
(b) 6...d5(!) 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.g3 Nf6
(b1) 9.e5 Ne4 is much more solid than "a".
(b2) 9.Bd2 Bxc3 10.Bxc3 Nxe4 11.Bxg7 Rg8 12.Be5 is interesting; 9...Bd7 comes into consideration.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #48 - 04/30/10 at 10:53:55
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Hi Stefan,

Will take a look at the 6 ...Bb4/8 g3 line anon (my first thought is, can we get away with 8 ...Nf6?). But on 6 ...d5!? -- I'm sure that this is better than after 6 Bd3, but is 7 Nc3 Bb4 clearly OK for Black? How should Black handle the position if [u]8 g3[/u], then Bd2 and e5?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #47 - 04/30/10 at 09:54:50
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nf3) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5. You guys like it, hmm... I must say that I thoroughly hate it to give White c2-c3 for free, with a French structure coming!
 
8.g3 (stronger than 8.Bd3) 8...d5 (the passive 8...d6!? avoids a Francofizierung, but would you like it?) 9.Qe2 Qe7 10.Nbd2 Nh6 11.Ng5 with an advantage for White, e.g. 11...0-0 12.Nb3 Bb6 13.h4 Re8 14.a4 a5 15.e5 c5 16.h5 Nf8 17.Be3 Ba7 18.Bh3 b6 19.Nd2 Bb7 20.Bdf3 Qd7 21.b3 Nf7 22.Nxf7 Qxf7 23.h6 with a difficult decision for Black.

The precise move seems to be 6...d5! hoping for 7.Nc3 Bb4. I think Michael has already mentioned it in this thread, but I am not sure. The problem with the immediate 6...d5 is, of course, that it is committing. No guessing about the pawn structure anymore, and White can arrange his pieces in the best possible way. That said, I don't know which of the plans is best: 7.Qd3, 7.c4 or... Maybe I'd prefer 7.g3, intending to transpose to the 6...Bb4+ line after 7...Bb4+?! 8.c3 Bc5 9.Qe2. Black can try 7...Bc5, when Black's position seems playable. More interesting: 7...Bd7!?, once again hoping for 8.Nc3 Bb4!, while accepting the sacrifice could be risky for White.  
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #46 - 04/29/10 at 14:55:24
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I like it! -- daft of me not to have got round to looking at 8 ...Nh6. I guess you're thinking of something like (10 ...0-0!) 11 Bh6 gh 12 g3 ef!, and White's King could have a very fugitive life ...

Fingers crossed that, between us, we're rescuing this defence! It's great fun, anyway.

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #45 - 04/29/10 at 14:18:24
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Interesting Michael!
(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.Nf3 Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.Bd3)
I think 8...Nh6!? is also worth a look, since after 9.f5 Nh4 pawn g2 is under attack (compare 6...Bc5 7.Nc3 Nh6 8.f5!). The complications after 10.Nd4 0-0! seem to favour Black.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #44 - 04/29/10 at 12:06:07
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I haven't yet found anything against 6 Nf3 Bc5 7 Nc3 either; 7 ...Nf6 allows 8 e5, and 7 ...a6 seems too slow.

But [b]6 ...Bb4!?[/b] might be OK? What's now best? [u]7 Nc3[/u] Nf6 8 Bd3 0-0 then ...d5 looks potentially OK though I haven't looked much at this. [u]7 c3[/u] is a concession in one sense I suppose and after 7 ...Bc5 (should this be found wanting there are other retreats!?) 8 Bd3, 8 ...d6 (Blocher--Lenninger) might be reasonable? I'd also considered 8 ...Nf6 9 e5 Nd5 10 Bg6 hg 11 Qd3 0-0[b]*[/b] 12 Qg6 Qe8!? with some comp. -- which led me to wonder why, after 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nf6(?!) 8 e5!, no one(?) has suggested 8 ...Nd5 -- but probably I'm just overlooking something obvious! Instead of 8 Bd3 in this line my strongest engine goes [u]8 Nbd2[/u] Nh6 9 Nb3 Bb6 10 f5 ef 11 Bh6 gh 12 ef Qe7 13 Kd2!!, but just [u]8 ...d5[/u] looks natural?


[b]*[/b] [b]Edit.[/b] Instead of 11 ...0-0 an engine of mine flirts with the amazing [b]11 ...b5!!??[/b] (12 Qg6 Kf8; 12 Qb5 Qe7). I'd never have thought of this in a month of Sundays -- maybe it's not so daft!
« Last Edit: 04/29/10 at 13:52:08 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #43 - 04/28/10 at 19:32:53
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/26/10 at 19:31:39:
Any thoughts, Stefan, on 6 Nf3 -- 6 ...Bc5 7 Nc3!? or 6 ...Bb4 7 c3!? (which looks to me best, though I may well be talking tripe)?
And then we'll move on to 6 Nc3 and 6 Be3 ... Wink

(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6) 6.Nf3. I liked 6...Bc5 7.Nc3 Nh6, but 8. f5! is a refutation. And if 7...d6 (Ivanov - Bauer, Metz 2005), the reply 8.Na4 Bb4+ (Bb6) 9.c3 Ba5 is at least +=.

6...b6 7.Nc3 Bb7 8.Bd3 Bc5 (8...Nh4 9.Ng5 Nxg2+ isn't correct) 9.g3! (9.Qe2 Nh4) 9...Nf6 10.Qe2, White is better. So I don't know.

Btw, a set-up with e3 may be strong: 4.Nf3 e6 (4...c6 5.f5 +-) 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.e3, e.g. 6...b6 7.Bd3 Bb7 8.h4 Bc5 9.Nc3 Nh6 10.Qe2 Qf6 11.h5 Ne7 12.Bd2 and a later 0-0-0, Rhg1 and g4-g5, at least +=. The pawn on e3 allows Rg1. And you never need this ugly g2-g3. - Edit: 4.Nf3 f5 is OK for Black.
« Last Edit: 04/28/10 at 21:41:57 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #42 - 04/26/10 at 19:31:39
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Nice one! Note to self: must learn to think dynamically when ahead in development, must learn to think dynamically when ahead in development, must learn ... Embarrassed

Of course, I never believed in 10 e5 anyway! Cheesy Increasingly, I don't believe so much in this whole line for White, "best" though it may be. Any thoughts, Stefan, on 6 Nf3 -- 6 ...Bc5 7 Nc3!? or 6 ...Bb4 7 c3!? (which looks to me best, though I may well be talking tripe)?

And then we'll move on to 6 Nc3 and 6 Be3 ... Wink
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #41 - 04/26/10 at 19:09:34
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[quote author=3E3D3731500 link=1271505369/40#40 date=1272284955]Wow! 11 c4!? is nothing if not double-edged ... [/quote]
"Double-edged" ... so you want Black to reply 11...b5, or what?

[fen]r1bq1rk1/p1p1b1pp/4p1nn/1p1pP3/2P2P2/3B1NP1/PP2Q2P/RNB1K2R[/fen]
12.cxb5 a6 or 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Bxb5 Bg4. Of course I decline any responsibility for your wild proposal.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #40 - 04/26/10 at 12:29:15
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Wow! 11 c4!? is nothing if not double-edged ... Will take a look. [b]Edit:[/b] should this prove strong, Black could prefer ...Bd7 or ...b6 on move 10, whereupon if c2-c4 White has to reckon with ...dxc4.

The ending you mention I adjudged equal. 7 Nc3 needs work but is there anything wrong with the natural 7 ...Nf6? -- sample line 8 Bd3 0-0 9 0-0 d5 10 e5 Bc5 11 Kh1 Ng4 12 g3 Nh6!, and that famous idea ...Be7! could be on the cards ...

« Last Edit: 04/26/10 at 15:49:58 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #39 - 04/26/10 at 12:18:47
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[quote author=1F38292A2D22130E39292F27293E4C0 link=1271505369/37#37 date=1272278936][quote author=6944494C4453210 link=1271505369/36#36 date=1272275981]1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3. e4 e6 4. f4 Ng6 5. dxe6 fxe6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Bd3 Nh6 8. Qe2 O-O 9. g3 d5 [...] but White can play 10.e5!? immediately. [/quote]
Hmm. Is there something wrong with 10...Be7 followed by c5? The Ng6 may be a minor handicap, but in this "~French" Black is fully developed and seems to do even better than after 4...c6.  ;)[/quote]

10...Be7 is a good move but I still like White's position after 11.c4!? planning Nc3, Bd2, O-O-O and then perhaps he can put the pawns on the right wing in motion. 


[quote author=4F4C4640210 link=1271505369/38#38 date=1272282027]After 6 Nf3 Bb4 here, 7 Nc3 is interesting and I need to look at this more. But on 7 Bd2, isn't 7 ...Bd2 8 Qd2 Qf6 OK (unless White has a good sac)?

[/quote]


I overlooked 8...Qf6. White has probably just enough compensation after 9.Nc3 Qxf4 10.Qxf4 Nxf4 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Ng5 Nh6 13.g3 Ng6 14.O-O-O d6 15.Bh3.



  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #38 - 04/26/10 at 11:40:27
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In the [b]4 ...c6!?[/b] line with 6 g3, 6 ...cd 7 ed Nf6 8 Nc3 a6!? looks interesting and maybe I'd underestimated this -- I guess White could overreach in a desire to punish Black's cheeky idea.

In Collyer--Barle Black certainly had to undertake imaginative regrouping before finishing off his lower-rated opponent. Will take another look at this.

In the [b]4 ...e6/5 ...fe[/b] line though, I'm not sure I'd be worried about 10 e5 even without 10 ...Be7!. But I think this precise move is well worth worth remembering -- I've noticed it occurring in other 'Bozo' positions.

After 6 Nf3 Bb4 here, 7 Nc3 is interesting and I need to look at this more. But on 7 Bd2, isn't 7 ...Bd2 8 Qd2 Qf6 OK (unless White has a good sac)?

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #37 - 04/26/10 at 10:48:56
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[quote author=6944494C4453210 link=1271505369/36#36 date=1272275981]1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3. e4 e6 4. f4 Ng6 5. dxe6 fxe6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Bd3 Nh6 8. Qe2 O-O 9. g3 d5 [...] but White can play 10.e5!? immediately. [/quote]
Hmm. Is there something wrong with 10...Be7 followed by c5? The Ng6 may be a minor handicap, but in this "~French" Black is fully developed and seems to do even better than after 4...c6.  ;)
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #36 - 04/26/10 at 09:59:41
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[quote author=7C7F7573120 link=1271505369/34#34 date=1272233767]
@ Hehmer
2 ...Nb8!? is certainly an interesting practical try, one I wouldn't want [i]not[/i] to have in my arsenal! Of course you could well be right about the 2 ...Ne5/4 ..e6 line, but it's under-explored and thus it prompts my interest! While 5 ...de obviously looks +/=, Black's results have seemingly been good and Burgess, for one, thinks White has little. I'd be interested to know which line(s) you fear most after 5 ...fe. At the moment I'm favouring:

[u]6 Bd3[/u] Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6, e.g. 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5 (see earlier posts, esp. Stefan's TN!)

[u]6 h4[/u] b6!?

[u]6 Nf3[/u] Bb4!? (under-explored?)[/quote]

After 5.dxe6 dxe6 6.Qxd8+ Kxd8 7.Nf3 I liked only 7...Bb4+ and found 4 games with that move:
Karpov,A - Berladier,L (1998), Crouch,C - Barle,J (2001),  Blagojevic,D - Lazic,M (2004) and Collyer,C - Barle,J (2009)

Blagojevic,D - Lazic,M is especially annoying for Black. Barle's two wins are encouraging at first sight but I don't think he was quite OK after the opening against Collyer, who followed Karpov's recipe (Bd3, Ke2, g3 +=).

My problem with 5...fxe6 is general one. I would like play d5 but then the Ng6 is especially stupidly placed.

Here's an example:

[Event "Zalakaros op 22nd"]
[Date "2003.05.21"]
[White "Berczes, David"]
[Black "Szakony, Laszlo"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A40"]
[WhiteElo "2324"]
[BlackElo "2237"]

1. d4 Nc6 2. d5 Ne5 3. e4 e6 4. f4 Ng6 5. dxe6 fxe6 6. Nf3 Bc5 7. Bd3 Nh6 8. Qe2 O-O 9. g3 d5 10. Nc3 c6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Ng5 Qe7 13. e5 Bd7 14. h4 Rfb8 15. Nxh7 Kxh7 16. h5 b4 17. Nd1 Rf8 18. g4 Be8 19. g5 Rh8 20. hxg6+ 1-0

Stefan's innovation 10...e5 improves on 10...c6 but White can play 10.e5!? immediately.

I like 6...b6 as response to the computer move 6.h4.

6.Nf3 Bb4+ is interesting. Many players will answer this with 7.c3 which is inferior to both 7.Nc3! (+=) and 7.Bd2 (+=).
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #35 - 04/26/10 at 09:53:33
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[quote author=73707A7C1D0 link=1271505369/34#34 date=1272233767]How would you meet 6 (or 7) g3? -- maybe not too terrible, but maybe decent for White as well?
[/quote]
I had intended a "Sicilian" approach, by exchanging cxd5 as soon as possible. But White's space advantage seems to give him a small plus.
(a) 6.g3 cxd5 7.Qxd5 (7.exd5 Nf6 8.Nc3 a6) 7...e6 8.Qc4 Qxc4 9.Bxc4 Bc5 10.Nc3 a6.
(b) 6.Nc3 e6 7.g3 cxd5 8.exd5 a6.
(c) 6.Qd4!? f6 7.g3 cxd5 8.exd5 e5 9.dxe6, when Black can try 9...dxe6 or 9...Qc6!?.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #34 - 04/25/10 at 22:16:07
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Very ingenious, Stefan! It'll take me a while to get my head round this! 7 de de 8 e5 Bb4 looks perfectly reasonable to me. How would you meet 6 (or 7) g3? -- maybe not too terrible, but maybe decent for White as well?

@ Hehmer
2 ...Nb8!? is certainly an interesting practical try, one I wouldn't want [i]not[/i] to have in my arsenal! Of course you could well be right about the 2 ...Ne5/4 ..e6 line, but it's under-explored and thus it prompts my interest! While 5 ...de obviously looks +/=, Black's results have seemingly been good and Burgess, for one, thinks White has little. I'd be interested to know which line(s) you fear most after 5 ...fe. At the moment I'm favouring:

[u]6 Bd3[/u] Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6, e.g. 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5 (see earlier posts, esp. Stefan's TN!)

[u]6 h4[/u] b6!?

[u]6 Nf3[/u] Bb4!? (under-explored?)
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #33 - 04/25/10 at 18:56:21
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If 7.dxe6 dxe6 8.e5, the reaction 8...Bb4 seems reasonable. 9.Bd2 (or 9.g3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 b6!) 9...Bxc3 10.bxc3 Nge7, Black isn't worse. In a way you are right to say that Black's position is cramped, but soon Black will play c5 and bring his only bishop to the b7-f3 diagonal, with a sound position. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #32 - 04/25/10 at 17:55:29
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/25/10 at 05:01:31:
(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4) 4...c6 5.Nf3(!) has been mentioned above.

I suggest 5...Qc7 6.Nc3 e6 (6...Nxf4?? 7.d6 +-), for example [b]7.f5 ....


7.f5 may be critical but Black needs also a good plan against the simple 7.dxe6 dxe6 8.e5 (+=) which I would expect from most players caught by surprise. Then 8...Bb4 9.Bd2 Bxc3 10.bxc3 should be good for White, 8...f6 is well met by 9.Bd3 and 8...N8e7 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.g3 looks at least more comfortable for White. Black may well end up with a cramped position.

Here some more general notes to this thread:

I really would like 1.d4 Nc6 to work (mainly because of 2.c4 e5!?) but I abandoned the idea some time ago because I don't trust the line 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 and I can't hold the queenless middlegames after 5...dxe6 6.Qxd8+ against myself often enough. Should I ever play 1.d4 Nc6 in a serious game I'll probably answer 2.d5 with 2...Nb8 and then d6, g6 and so on.

For those who intend to play 2...d5 after the popular 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 it might make more sense to study the other lines (3.Nc3, 3.cxd5) of the Chigorin and play 1...d5 first.

  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #31 - 04/25/10 at 05:01:31
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4) 4...c6 5.Nf3(!) has been mentioned above.

I suggest 5...Qc7 6.Nc3 e6 (6...Nxf4?? 7.d6 +-), for example 7.f5 Ne5 8.Bf4 Bd6 9.fxe6 dxe6 10.Nxe5 Bxe5 11.d6 Qa5 12.Qf3 Qc5! (12...Nf6 13.b4!) 13.0-0-0 Nf6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *

The pawn d6 looks strong, but there are few weaknesses in Black's camp: 14.Bxe5 (14. Rd3 Bxf4+ 15.Qxf4 e5 or 14...0-0; 14.Kb1 Bxc3 or 14...0-0 or 14...Bxf4 15.Qxf4 e5 16.Qg3 0-0 17.Be2 Rd8 18.Rhf1 Kf8) 14...Qxe5 15.g3 Bd7 with good prospects to develop and equalize. If 16.Qf4?!, Black has the response 16...Qxf4+ 17.gxf4 e5!.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #30 - 04/24/10 at 07:08:53
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Important! -- in my Reply #26 above, forget the footnote! Apologies -- I was just getting mixed up. In another thread, Inn2 suggests that [5 ...fe] 6 Bd3 d5 allows 7 Qe2(!). Maybe 6 ...d5 is more promising after 6 Nf3, then, but so far I don't like it much, e.g. 7 Nc3 Bb4 8 g3 Nf6 (I wanted to make 8 ...c5 work, but 9 Bd2!?) 9 Bd2 (9 ...0-0 10 e5).

At the moment, after 6 Nf3 I'm more interested in 6 ...Bb4!?, which has been tried successfully at least once. Perhaps it's playable after 6 Bd3 too. I was led to exploring this through being unsure how Black should play after 6 Nf3 Bc5 [b]7 Nc3!?[/b], which looks rather annoying. Any thoughts/info on (any of) this? Is this all more or less virgin territory?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #29 - 04/24/10 at 04:35:18
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I might have one game, but need to locate it.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #28 - 04/23/10 at 22:21:40
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I note that none of those games featured the critical 2.d5.  Tony Miles's games were the same- according to Chess Monthly he only faced it once in a simul.

Quote:
1 d4 Nc6 2 e4 d5 3 ed5 Qxd5 4 Nf3 Bg4

I recognise that as a combative line of the Scandinavian- I've had it in numerous games via a 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 move-order!

Haven't yet found anything convincing for Black (yet) after 4...c6 5.Nf3! either - but I agree that 4...e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4 b6 looks quite promising for Black, and an idea worth bearing in mind in related lines.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #27 - 04/23/10 at 19:07:25
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I found the old game-scores. They are from the early 1990s.

Ernest Haile (1800) - Zilbermints (1900)
Marshall Chess Club
Wednesday Under 2000
28 October 1992

1 d4 Nc6  2 e3 e5 3 Bb5 ed4 4 Bxc6 dxc6 5 Qd4 Qxd4 6 ed4 Bf5 7 c3 c5 8 Nf3 Bd3 9 Ne5 Ba6 10 Be3 Bd6 11 Nd2 Nf6 12 Nec4 cd4 13 Nxe6 cxd6 14 Bxd4 Ke7 15 000 Rhe8 16 Rde1+ Kd7 17 Bxf6 gf6 18 Nf3 Bc4 19 b3 Bd4 20 Nh4 Re6 21 Kd2 Rae8 22 Re3 Re4 23 Rhe1 R4e5 24 f4 R5e6 25 g3 Be4 26 c4 f5 27 a4 a5 28 Kc3 d5! 29 cd Rc8+ 30 Kd4?? Rd6!
31 Nxf5 Bxf5 32 Re7+ Kc7 33 Ree7 Rd7! 34 Ke5 Rxe8 35 Rxe8 Bc2 36 Rh8 Bb3 37 d6+ Rxd6 38 Rxh7 Rd7 39 Kf6 Bxa4 40 Rh5 b6  41 Re5 Bb3 42 h4 a4 43 Re3 Rd6+  44 Kf5 Bc2+  45 Kg3 Rd3 46 Re7 Rd7 48 Re7 Kd6 49 Rxf7 a3  50 Ra7 b5  51 h5 Ba4! 52 Ra8 Kc7 53 h6 a2 54 h7 a1/Q  55 h8/Q  Qd1+  56 Kf5  Rd5+  57 Ke6  Rd6+  58 Kf5 Qd3+  59 Kg5 Qxg3+  60 Resigns    

Other early 1990s games transposed to the Nimzovich Defence, 1 e4 Nc6 2 d4 d5 lines. Such was the case in IM Walter Shipman - Zilbermints, Marshall Chess Club Weekend Swiss, 29 August 1992:

1 d4 Nc6 2 e4 (After 6 minutes of thinking!) d5
3 Nc3 de4 4 d5 Nb8 5 Nxe4 Nf6 = although 1-0/69 moves.

Peter Hammer (2037) - Zilbermints, Round 4 in the same tournament, went:

1 d4 Nc6 2 e4 d5 3 ed5 Qxd5 4 Nf3 Bg4 5 c3 000 6 Be2 e5! =  0.5 - 0.5/71 moves.

The next game can transpose after 1 d4 Nc6 2 Nf3 d6 3 c4 Bg4:

Guss (1700) - Zilbermints (1900)
Marshall CC U2000
30 September 1992

1 Nf3 Nc6 2 d4 d6 3 c4 Bg4 4 Nbd2 e5 5 d5 Bxf3 6 Nxf3 Nce7 7 e4 Qd7 8 Bd3 Ng6 9 h3 Be7 10 00 Bf6
11 Nh2 h5  12 Qb3 000 13 Be3 Kb8  14 Qa3 b6  15 b4 Nf4  16 Bxf4 ef4 17 Rab1 g5  18 f3 Bd4+  19 Kh1
Nh6  20 Be2? g4 21 fg4 hg4 22 Nxg4 Nxg4 23 Bxg4 Qxg4 24 c5 Rcg8 25 Qf3 Qxf3 26 Rxf3 Be5 27 a4 Rg3 28 Resigns

Other games were 1 e4 Nc6, the Nimzovich Defence.
In those days I was influenced by Britain's GM Tony Miles, who played 1...Nc6 against any opening. His games were published in Inside Chess magazine, to which I subscribed at the time. This explains why I had some 1...Nc6 games back then.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #26 - 04/23/10 at 12:53:47
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@ Gambit
Great! -- hope you can post the games. (Bet you didn't favour 5 ...dxe6! Cheesy)

@linksspringer
Yes, 5 ...d6 is possible but Black's position looks pretty grotty -- I can't make sense of the N on g6.

I have the feeling that in the 4 ...e6/e5 5 de fe line, serious analytical scrutiny, incl. the use of strong engines, could throw up quite a few new ideas. White has numerous tries here, from the dubious(?) 6 e5 and 6 Qf3 through 6 g3, 6 Nc3, 6 Be3 and 6 Bd3 to the critical 6 Nf3 and 6 h4!?, and it seems there's little established theory on any of them! ChessPub forum, of course, is leading the way! Cheesy

Footnote! In my original, no longer modifiable, post, I meant to write that it's after 6 Bd3, not 6 Nf3, that 6 ...d5 might or might not be strong ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #25 - 04/23/10 at 10:37:17
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Michael Ayton wrote on 04/22/10 at 17:42:08:
It'd be great to make 4 ...c6 work! So far though I haven't found anything against 5 Nf3 ... Maybe you can help!

Interesting news from the Kania website. Maybe one of us should drop them a line ...

Yes, you are right, 5.Nf3 looks tough. Black could transpose into the Mestrovic variation with 5...d6, although that doesn't look attractive. I'll try and find my old notes on 4...e6.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #24 - 04/23/10 at 02:58:27
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This brings back memories! In the early 1990s I used to play a few games with 1 d4 Nc6. If I can find the old game scores, I will post them here.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #23 - 04/22/10 at 17:42:08
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It'd be great to make 4 ...c6 work! So far though I haven't found anything against 5 Nf3 ... Maybe you can help!

Interesting news from the Kania website. Maybe one of us should drop them a line ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #22 - 04/22/10 at 12:45:20
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4) 4...c6 looks like a very interesting innovation!
Just FYI regarding the literature: Stefan mentioned 1...Sc6! aus allen Lagen (1995), but that may be difficult to get hold of. However, I noticed that Berdichevsky copies a lot of analysis from Keilhack and Schlenker.  Roll Eyes
And on the Kania website there is this announcement:
Ilja Schneider & Friends, 1...Sc6! aus allen Lagen - Neubearbeitung! Der junge IM, Elo 2508, schreibt das klassische Keilhack-Schlenker-Konzept fort!
No expected publication date given however.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #21 - 04/21/10 at 11:03:55
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Fingers crossed! ... Smiley

(10 a3!? is interesting, but maybe just 10 ...Qe7 and 11 ...0-0-0 ...)
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #20 - 04/21/10 at 10:48:41
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Yes, 6.h4 b6! looks best, to find other ways to bring your pieces into play, and maybe castle long. For example 7.h5 N6e7 8.Nc3 Bb7 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.Be3 Bb4 11.Qd3 Qe7 12.0-0-0 Nf6 (or 12...Bxc3 13.Qxc3 Nf6), and Black has nothing to fear.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #19 - 04/21/10 at 09:57:56
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Thanks for this Stefan -- alas it's not (yet!) looking good for the Bogo! In the ...e6 line with 5 ...fe 6 h4! I haven't yet found solace either. After 5 ...Bb4 the 9 h6 line looks good for White, and 6 ...d5 7 h5 N6e7 8 Nf3 Nc6!? 9 Nc3! Bb4 10 Bd2 Nf6 11 e5 also looks thankless. Maybe 8 ...Nh6 here should be looked at (but then just 9 Nc3 ...)? I was also looking at [b]6 ...Nh6[/b] 7 h5 Ne7, with the idea that 8 Nc3 Nc6 9 Nf3 Bc5 might be awkward for White -- so an engine suggests 9 g4!?-! I guess though that there are also other lines like 8 Be3!? Nc6 9 Nc3 Bb4 10 Qd2 then 0-0-0 (+/=?). I want to punish White for all his pawn moves by dynamic piece play, but the space plus constant threat of h5-h6 look serious, grrr ...

My latest thought is [b]6 ...b6!?[/b] (more flexible than 6 ...Nh6 7 h5 Ne7 8 Nc3 b6?) ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #18 - 04/21/10 at 09:22:14
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[quote author=696A6066070 link=1271505369/16#16 date=1271786942]After 4 ...c6!? [b]5 Nf3[/b] cd I was thinking about [u]6 ed[/u] -- e.g. something like 6 ...e6 7 Nc3 Nf6 8 de fe 9 Bd3 and positional pressure coming up? All very provisional as ever, so do put me right![/quote]
You are right: [b]5.Nf3! [/b](avoids Black's plan to save the Ng6 by indirect measures) [b]5...cxd5 6.exd5![/b] is promising and critical. My first idea was 7...Bb4 (instead of 7...Nf6, when 8.d6 comes into consideration), so that N8e7 (protecting Ng6) remains an option against dxe6 followed by Bd3 or similar set-ups. But 8.dxe6! (8.Qd4?! unclear) is favourable for White, e.g. 8...Bxc3+ 9.bxc3 fxe6 10.Bd3 N8e7 11.0-0 0-0 12.g3 +/-. Or 8...fxe6 (8...Qe7 9.Qd4) 9.Qd4 Qe7 10.h4 etc.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #17 - 04/20/10 at 19:47:09
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/20/10 at 17:20:27:
(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7. Instead of 9.b4 I'd prefer 9.h6 g6 10.Nf3 followed by Ng5.

Quote:
I think 4...c6 doesn't work after 5.Nc3, e.g. 5...Nf6 6.dxc6 bxc6 7.e5 leaves the knight with no good square, and 5...Qc7 6.Nf3 Nf6 (or 6...d6 7.f5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 must be better for White) 7.Qd4 threatens 8.e5.

However, 5...Qb6! 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.a4 cxd5 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Qxd5 e6 10.Qd4 (10.Qb5 Bc5; 10.Qd3 Qc7!) 10...Qxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Nb3 Bb6, intending e5. White hasn't much.

Fritz initially rejects 5...Qb6 on account 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.f5 Ng4 (the only way to avoid losing a knight) 8.Qd4 N6e5 9.Qxb6 axb6 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Be3.  That said, I'm not sure if White has much after 11...b5, so maybe 4...c6 5.Nc3 is indeed viable for Black.  An alternative may be 7.h4 with similar lines to the above (7...cxd5 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Qxd5 e6 10.Qd4 Qxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Nb3 Bb6) and here White continues 13.h5 Ne7 and then maybe 14.h6 g6 (yet again, a pretty unusual position), though again it looks viable for Black.  10.Qb5 Bc5 11.Qxb6 is similar.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #16 - 04/20/10 at 18:09:02
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[quote](1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7. Instead of 9.b4 I'd prefer 9.h6 g6 10.Nf3 followed by Ng5.[/quote]

Beat me to it by half an hour! This position is weird. Can it be trusted for Black? (I'd been wondering about 10 ...a6, but just off top of head.)

After 4 ...c6!? [b]5 Nf3[/b] cd I was thinking about [u]6 ed[/u] -- e.g. something like 6 ...e6 7 Nc3 Nf6 8 de fe 9 Bd3 and positional pressure coming up? All very provisional as ever, so do put me right!

Names are indeed nothing, as W. B. Yeats said, but I'm rather surprised Markovich prefers 2 e4 over 2 d5, [i]not[/i] just because I share Stefan's high opinion of the Nimzo but because after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Black conspicuously has to prove (at least in the 5 ...fe lines) s/he's not going to get a terrible position pretty quickly! Of course practical considerations might dictate choosing a less critical line and both 2 e4 and 2 Nf3 fit that bill, but after the latter White had better be prepared for 2 ...d5! -- facing the Chigorin, any Chigorin, casually is not fun! I haven't yet researched 2 ...d6!? but as yet I'm slightly sceptical about Black's three(?) main options after 3 c4 e5 4 Nc3 (4 ...Bg4, 4 ...g6, 4 ...ed); there's a thread somewhere on the last of these. Personally I'm tempted by Bogolyubov's original 2 ...g6 here, mainly 'cos I'm engaged in exploring [b]linksspringer[/b]'s suggestion of 2 ...g6 in the 1 e4 Nc6 2 Nf3 Nimzo! Again, there's a thread on this. (I'm less keen on the 2 ...d6 Nimzo; 3 d4 Bg4!? is interesting but I'm wondering, Stefan, how you meet 4 Be3 -- do you or K&S have a recipe?)
« Last Edit: 04/20/10 at 21:49:56 by Michael Ayton »  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #15 - 04/20/10 at 17:20:27
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(1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4) 6...Bb4+ 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7. Instead of 9.b4 I'd prefer 9.h6 g6 10.Nf3 followed by Ng5.

Quote:
I think 4...c6 doesn't work after 5.Nc3, e.g. 5...Nf6 6.dxc6 bxc6 7.e5 leaves the knight with no good square, and 5...Qc7 6.Nf3 Nf6 (or 6...d6 7.f5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 must be better for White) 7.Qd4 threatens 8.e5.

However, 5...Qb6! 6.Nf3 Nf6 7.a4 cxd5 8.Nxd5 Nxd5 9.Qxd5 e6 10.Qd4 (10.Qb5 Bc5; 10.Qd3 Qc7!) 10...Qxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 12.Nb3 Bb6, intending e5. White hasn't much.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #14 - 04/20/10 at 16:56:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 04/19/10 at 17:42:11:
(5...fxe6) 6.h4 looks a bit dangerous for Black, e. g. 6...d5 7.h5 N6e7 8.Nf3, White plans 9.c4 & 10.Nc3.
On the other side, 4...c6 5. Nf3 cxd5 6.Qxd5 e6 7.Qd3 Bc5 or 7.Qb3 Qc7 is a sound Sicilian structure. Probably 5.Nc3 is more critical.

I checked out the alternative 6...Bb4+: 7.c3 Bc5 8.h5 N6e7 9.b4 Bxb1 10.Rxb1 is quite similar, here White's pieces are on less optimal squares but White does have the bishop-pair.  White is probably better but the whole line looks interesting.

I think 4...c6 doesn't work after 5.Nc3, e.g. 5...Nf6 6.dxc6 bxc6 7.e5 leaves the knight with no good square, and 5...Qc7 6.Nf3 Nf6 (or 6...d6 7.f5 Ne5 8.Nxe5 dxe5 must be better for White) 7.Qd4 threatens 8.e5.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #13 - 04/20/10 at 16:28:38
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OK, 1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 should be considered in this context. However, the reputation of the Chigorin QG 2...d5 isn't too bad. Further options: 2...d6 3.e4 Bg4 is one of the better lines of the Nimzowitsch Defence, while 3.c4 f5 may become a Krause Dutch; 2...e6 3.e4 d5 isn't exciting, but solid enough. So it may indeed depend from Black's repertoire whether 1.d4 Nc6 would be a wise practical choice, but from a theoretical perspective 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 would be widely regarded as critical. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #12 - 04/20/10 at 15:57:44
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 04/19/10 at 21:13:38:
So Markovich, you'd just transpose to the Nimzovich Defense rather than test the viability of the Bogo Defense? 

It certainly makes practical sense, but I don't think it answers the theoretical question of the soundness of the Bogo per se.


These are but names.  When a position can arise in more than one plausible way, whether it's classified under one system or under another is entirely arbitrary.

The theoretical question, "What is good play after 1.d4 Nc6?" surely must recognize 2.e4 and 2.Nf3 as possible answers.  If the purpose of this thread was to consider only 2.d5, then I'm sorry for posting off-topic, but that wasn't obvious to me.

@Stefan:  You may be right that 1.e4 Nc6 is on a par with the French and the Caro, but judging by its rate of occurrence, it seems that this point of view isn't widely accepted.  It isn't obvious to me that 2.e4 is theoretically suboptimal.  Though I have no reason to doubt your view that 2.d5 is critical, the possibility remains that 2.e4 or even 2.Nf3 is the best move.  With regard to the latter, I meant after 1.d4 Nc6, not after 1.e4 Nc6.
  

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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #11 - 04/20/10 at 10:15:15
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I think 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 gives White a slight edge, but indeed the same can probably be said for the French and Caro-Kann.  Black can also try 2.d4 e5, e.g. 3.dxe5 (3.Nf3 is a Scotch) 3...Nxe5 4.Nf3 (or 4.f4, more aggressive but potentially more weakening) when 4...Bb4+ is possible or 4...Qf6 5.Nc3 (5.Nxe5 Qxe5 6.Bd3 d5 =, see http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss07.pdf page 5) 5...Bb4 6.Bd2 Ne7 with just a small edge for White.  I'm not familiar with the line 2.d4 d5 but that too may be okay for Black.

I might have a look at the 4...c6 line myself later as I've occasionally flirted with the idea of adding 1.d4 Nc6 to my repertoire.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #10 - 04/20/10 at 06:39:51
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Markovich wrote on 04/19/10 at 20:27:34:
I hope I post on-topic when I say that my preference against this has been 2.e4, e.g. 2...d5 3.Nc3.  I guess that's nominally a different system, but I like it for White.  2.Nf3 is a fairly good answer too, eh?

Imo 1.e4 Nc6 isn't worse than the French or the Caro-Kann. On 2.d4 Black has many sound replies. 2.Nf3 e5 - Marshall Attack anybody? But after 1.d4 Nc6 2.d5 Ne5 3.f4 Ng6 4.e4 e6 5.dxe6 fxe6 6.h4 the PC claims +0.40. Maybe it can be cured, but not without concrete analysis. - If someone wants to discuss the Alekhine Defence, do you reply that 2.Nc3 is a "fairly good answer"? In the Ryder Gambit, do you avoid to take on d4?
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #9 - 04/19/10 at 21:13:38
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So Markovich, you'd just transpose to the Nimzovich Defense rather than test the viability of the Bogo Defense? 

It certainly makes practical sense, but I don't think it answers the theoretical question of the soundness of the Bogo per se.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #8 - 04/19/10 at 20:27:34
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I hope I post on-topic when I say that my preference against this has been 2.e4, e.g. 2...d5 3.Nc3.  I guess that's nominally a different system, but I like it for White.  2.Nf3 is a fairly good answer too, eh?
  

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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #7 - 04/19/10 at 17:42:11
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(5...fxe6) 6.h4 looks a bit dangerous for Black, e. g. 6...d5 7.h5 N6e7 8.Nf3, White plans 9.c4 & 10.Nc3.
On the other side, 4...c6 5. Nf3 cxd5 6.Qxd5 e6 7.Qd3 Bc5 or 7.Qb3 Qc7 is a sound Sicilian structure. Probably 5.Nc3 is more critical.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #6 - 04/19/10 at 14:18:18
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Thanks again Stefan -- glad that 7 ...d5 holds up. I must get hold of Keilhack & Schlenker as soon as I get my next pay cheque! 4 ...c6!? -- h'mm, will take a look. (I assume idea is 5 c4?! e5!) 5 Nf3 might be good? -- it all looks very messy ...

6 h4!?, I'm tempted by 6 ...Bb4 or 6 ...d5, but that's just off the top of my head ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #5 - 04/19/10 at 05:01:18
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[quote author=47444E48290 link=1271505369/4#4 date=1271600595]I haven't got Pickard's CD, but most sources on the position after 2 d5 Ne5 seem omissive to the point of uselessness: the usual regurgitation! A case in point perhaps is the repeated citing of Ballmann-Bus which went (5 ...fe) 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 g3 d6 8 h4!? Bd7 and Black's said to be OK -- no one mentions that with 8 Nf3 White can steer Black into the 7 Nf3 d6 line (which looks rather passive to me though as always I stand to be corrected). Instead after 7 g3 here, in view of the weakening of the diagonal from h1 I want to play 7 ...d5 immediately! ... Anyway hope we can keep up the discussion ...[/quote]
Michael,
your 7.g3 d5! certainly is an improvement. My source is [i]1...Sc6! ...aus allen Lagen[/i] (1995) by Harald Keilhack and Rainer Schlenker, which also has 12 pages on 1.d4 Nc6. Here the theory of 7.g3 is just as described in your message. - Instead of the clumsy preparation 7.g3 and only then h4, White might try (5...fxe6) 6.h4, for example 6...Nxh4? 7.Qg4 Ng6 8.Rxh7etc.

I don't know much about 1.d4 Nc6. Apparently 4...e6 is obligatory (~40 games in the database), since there is no 4...c6 (to exchange a center pawn), but what's the refutation? Too busy to insist that it is better, but: 5.Nc3 Qb6 6.Nf3 Nf6, here 7.a4!? could be an idea. 
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #4 - 04/18/10 at 14:23:15
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Thanks Stefan -- I was hoping you'd be interested in this discussion! I really like this dynamic approach! Absolutely typical of me to have thought too conservatively ...

I haven't got Pickard's CD, but most sources on the position after 2 d5 Ne5 seem omissive to the point of uselessness: the usual regurgitation! A case in point perhaps is the repeated citing of Ballmann-Bus which went (5 ...fe) 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 g3 d6 8 h4!? Bd7 and Black's said to be OK -- no one mentions that with 8 Nf3 White can steer Black into the 7 Nf3 d6 line (which looks rather passive to me though as always I stand to be corrected). Instead after 7 g3 here, in view of the weakening of the diagonal from h1 I want to play 7 ...d5 immediately! ... Anyway hope we can keep up the discussion ...
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #3 - 04/17/10 at 17:13:05
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[quote author=65666C6A0B0 link=1271505369/0#0 date=1271505369]I’ve been getting interested in this, the subject of various old threads, again after winning with it in only eleven(!) moves in the Durham League a few days ago, so I thought I’d open a new thread! I’m especially interested in two positions after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 f4 Ng6 4 e4 e6 5 de: [u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3[/u] (6 Nf3 may or may not permit an advantageous 6 …d5!?) [u]Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u] (I suppose 7 …d6 is inferior, if only because of 8 g3), and [u](2) 5 …de[/u]. Modern views on this opening have, it seems, been influenced quite a bit by the comments of Burgess in [i]Beating the Indian Defences[/i] (1997) and [i]NCO[/i] (1999). In the former of these he suggests 5 …de 6 Qd8 is very little for White (which results do seem to bear out!) and prefers 6 Bd3, while in [i]NCO[/i] he famously calls the 5 …fe line dubious! Anyway, here are my tentative thoughts thus far -- I’d really welcome yours!

[u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u]

Ionescu-Yevdokimov went 8 g3 Ng4 9 Rf1 d6 10 Qe2 0-0 11 Nc3. Here Black blundered with 11 …Ne7 allowing 12 Ng5, but, although Berdichevsky calls the position unclear, I’m suspicious about Black’s play (... Ng4 seems rarely to be a good idea). Maybe 11 …d5? -- but it looks good for White to me. Since Black needs to gain space and play, why not just 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5!? (or 8 Qe2 0-0 9 g3 d5)? Here Blagosevic-Karpatchev (the only game in this line?) went 10 Nc3 [highlight]c6!? [/highlight]11 Bd2 b5 12 e5 Nf5 13 Nd1 Bd7 14 Nf2 a5 15 0-0, draw agreed. I guess White could play more aggressively here, e.g. 12 0-0-0, but then maybe 12 …d4 13 Nb1 Qb6 is reasonable (14 e5 Nf5; 14 Ng5 Be7!)?
[...] [/quote]
Or perhaps 10...e5!?

[fen]r1bq1rk1/ppp3pp/6nn/2bpp3/4PP2/2NB1NP1/PPP1Q2P/R1B1K2R[/fen]
11.f5 (11.Nxd5 c6 or 11.h3 exf4 12.Bxf4 Rxf4!?) 11...Nxf5 12. exf5 (12.Bg5 Nfe7 followed by Bg4) 12. ... e4 "comp".
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #2 - 04/17/10 at 13:40:31
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Hi Smyslov_Fan,

No, the old threads con't comment on Tisdall, who scarcely gives much analysis anyway -- just a vague suggestion of 11 Ng5 in Cole-Wall. Furthermore he appears to contradict himself -- suggesting in one place that 7 ...Bb4 (in Crouch-Barle) may be wrong because it provokes c2-c3 but in another place that 8 Nc3 might be the right reply anyway!

But, though I used to think the 5 ...fe lines awful, now I'm not so sure. The plan of ...0-0 and ...d5 (Blagosevic-Karpatchev) might be worth a serious look? (And yes, be all this as it may, things are damn complex!) Moreover after 5 ...de 6 Bd3, Burgess merely cites Klaric-Dlugy, without mentioning the (earlier or later) ...Bd7 possibility.
  
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Re: Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
Reply #1 - 04/17/10 at 13:18:31
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Michael,

I suspect, as I think you do, that Burgess may be right theoretically, but the truth is so complicated that a well-armed player could do quite well using this as a surprise weapon.

Do the old threads comment on Tisdall's analysis?
  
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Bogolyubov Defence (1 d4 Nc6!?) revisited
04/17/10 at 11:56:09
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I’ve been getting interested in this, the subject of various old threads, again after winning with it in only eleven(!) moves in the Durham League a few days ago, so I thought I’d open a new thread! I’m especially interested in two positions after 1 d4 Nc6 2 d5 Ne5 3 f4 Ng6 4 e4 e6 5 de: [u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3[/u] (6 Nf3 may or may not permit an advantageous 6 …d5!?) [u]Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u] (I suppose 7 …d6 is inferior, if only because of 8 g3), and [u](2) 5 …de[/u]. Modern views on this opening have, it seems, been influenced quite a bit by the comments of Burgess in [i]Beating the Indian Defences[/i] (1997) and [i]NCO[/i] (1999). In the former of these he suggests 5 …de 6 Qd8 is very little for White (which results do seem to bear out!) and prefers 6 Bd3, while in [i]NCO[/i] he famously calls the 5 …fe line dubious! Anyway, here are my tentative thoughts thus far -- I’d really welcome yours!

[u](1) 5 …fe 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Nh6[/u]

Ionescu-Yevdokimov went 8 g3 Ng4 9 Rf1 d6 10 Qe2 0-0 11 Nc3. Here Black blundered with 11 …Ne7 allowing 12 Ng5, but, although Berdichevsky calls the position unclear, I’m suspicious about Black’s play (... Ng4 seems rarely to be a good idea). Maybe 11 …d5? -- but it looks good for White to me. Since Black needs to gain space and play, why not just 8 g3 0-0 9 Qe2 d5!? (or 8 Qe2 0-0 9 g3 d5)? Here Blagosevic-Karpatchev (the only game in this line?) went 10 Nc3 c6!? 11 Bd2 b5 12 e5 Nf5 13 Nd1 Bd7 14 Nf2 a5 15 0-0, draw agreed. I guess White could play more aggressively here, e.g. 12 0-0-0, but then maybe 12 …d4 13 Nb1 Qb6 is reasonable (14 e5 Nf5; 14 Ng5 Be7!)?

Of course White has alternatives, for instance 8 g3 0-0 9 Nc3. Without Qd1-e2 in, maybe Black can try here 9 …d5 10 Na4 de 11 Be4 Qd1 12 Kd1 Bd6? Meanwhile, I showed this position to Rybka and it came out with the ‘eternal combination’ 9 …a6!? 10 f5 ef 11 Bh6 gh 12 ef Qe8 13 Qe2 Qe2 14 Ke2 d5 15 fg Bg4 16 gh Kh8 17 Kd2 Rf3 18 Rae1 Bf2 19 Re2 Rf7 …

[u](2) 5 …de[/u]

In Klaric-Dlugy, following 6 Bd3 Bc5 7 Nf3 Black castled rather early, and after 7 …Nf6 8 Qe2 0-0 9 g3 played 9 …e5?! allowing 10 f5 with an attack. Maybe 9 …Bd7 is OK? -- but in any case it can be played on move 7. Dizdar-Mohr was a short draw: 7 …Bd7 8 Qe2 Nf6 9 g3 Qe7 10 Nc3 Bc6 11 Bd2 0-0-0 12 0-0-0 Rhe8 13 Kb1 e5 14 f5. Rather sterile stuff, but possibly enough to convince some Whites to follow a more ‘exciting’ path on move 2 …?

The same might be said of 6 Qd8 Kd8 7 Nf3 (best?). I’d be interested to know what people think Black’s best defence is here! Tisdall on ChessPub suggests it [i]might[/i] not be 7 …Bb4 8 c3 Bc5 as White wants to expand anyway, but a couple of games by Barle, against Crouch and Collyer (the first of which I saw at first hand), suggest that White too has to be careful! 7 …Nf6 (Cole-Wall) is maybe less sharp, while 7 …Bc5 and 7 …Bd7 have also been played successfully. Overall Black’s results here have been fine! -- though it must be said the sample is pretty small.


So -- is Burgess right, or is the truth more complicated? And how reliable or otherwise is the 2 d5 Ne5 line? As a final thought, enthusiasts of line (1) might need to prepare line (2) anyway, [i]if[/i] they meet 3 e4 with 3 ...e6. Berdichevsky suggests (p. 130) that here, after 4 de, 4 ...fe is dubious because of 5 Nc3! (5 ...Bb4? 6 Qd4; 5 ...Nf6?! 6 f4; 5 ...Ng6 6 Nf3 Bc5 7 h4!; best may be 5 ...b6). But even if this is true, Black can play 3 e4 [u]Ng6 4 f4 e6[/u] (which was in fact the move order of Collyer-Barle), or, if in the mood for something [i]really[/i] offbeat, Mestrovic's [u]3 ...d6!?[/u] ...
« Last Edit: 04/17/10 at 14:49:22 by Michael Ayton »  
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