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Normal Topic 5. h3 or 6. h3 (Read 3999 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #6 - 07/20/10 at 19:09:43
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TN wrote on 07/20/10 at 06:52:09:
In LeeRoth's variation, White should play 6.Nf3 e5 7.d5 Nc5 8.Nd2 or 6.Be3 e5 7.de5 de5 8.c5. If Black tries 6...0-0 then a 6.Bg5 player can still play 7.Bg5, albeit with the king's knight committed to f3.


I'm not sure I follow:

After 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Nf3 e5 7.d5 Nc5 the move 8.Nd2 looks like a mistake that buries the Bc1.  In my database, almost everyone plays 8.Qc2 here. 

After 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Be3 e5 the capture 7.dxe5 seems fine for Black and, again in my database, almost everyone plays 7.d5 here.   

And after 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Be3 0-0, I don't think you meant to suggest 7.Bg5 as that just wastes a tempo.

I should, perhaps, note that Like TicklyTim, I'm still exploring these lines and haven't decided whether to start with 5.Nf3 or 5.h3.  So the purpose of my earlier post wasn't to suggest that one is better than the other, but just to point out that there are some differences between them.

I'll also say that I'm not too worried about these early Nbd7 lines because in practice nearly everybody plays ..0-0 first.  I do note that if you start with 5.Nf3 and someone plays 5..Nbd7 against you, you don't necessarily have to play 6.h3.  You can try 6.e5!? dxe5 7.dxe5 Ng4 8.e6 instead (or even play 6.Be2, but that's a whole different system to learn).

Another difference that I did not mention above, but Breutigam also notes, is that after 5.h3, if Black so desires, he can dispense with 5..Nbd7 and play 5..e5 immediately.  The point is that 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Qxd8 Kxd8 is fine for Black.  Breutigam notes that White normally tries to play f4 in these types of positions, but here, with h3 already in, f4 can be met with Nh5, aiming at g3.  And, of course, if White chooses 6.d5, then something like 6.. Na6 7.Bg5 h6 8.Be3 Nc5 transposes to the position I gave above.


  
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TN
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #5 - 07/20/10 at 06:52:09
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I'd recommend the 5.h3 move order since it keeps your options open if you intend to play a h3 system; when your opponents prepare for you they will have to look at 5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 and 6.Be3 as well as 6.Nf3.

In LeeRoth's variation, White should play 6.Nf3 e5 7.d5 Nc5 8.Nd2 or 6.Be3 e5 7.de5 de5 8.c5. If Black tries 6...0-0 then a 6.Bg5 player can still play 7.Bg5, albeit with the king's knight committed to f3.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #4 - 07/20/10 at 02:17:58
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As noted above, the main reason to play 5.h3 is to play the variation 6.Bg5.  If you plan to play a Nf3 line, Breutigam suggests that the move order doesn't matter much, but after 5.h3 he points out that Black can try to take advantage of the fact that he hasn't castled yet to immediately attack White's center.  For example, 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 Nbd7 6.Bg5 e5 7.d5 h6 8.Be3 Nc5. 

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With this move order, White doesn't have Nf3-d2 available, so must protect the e4 pawn with 9.f3, weakening g3, or with 9.Qc2, when the Queen can become exposed on the c-file. 

I should note that, in practice, Black does very poorly when he tries this.  But I'm not sure how much the practical results mean, as its a small sample, the White players tend to be higher rated, and Breutigam offers some suggestions for how Black can improve his play.  So, all in all, it's interesting and maybe a small reason to prefer 5.Nf3 0-0 6.h3.
  
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TicklyTim
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #3 - 05/28/10 at 09:26:26
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If you play 5.h3 (intending 6.Nf3 as opposed to 6.Bg5) you are showing your hand a little earlier, and Black may vary.
I think (from memory) that Grivas doesn't give h3 vs the ..Nbd7/..e5 plan but plays more classically with Qc2/Rd1.

By playing 5.h3 you are already committed and can't play this suggestion. However, I think Black can play this ..Nbd7/..e5 at a later stage after 6.h3 anyway so perhaps variations with h3 must be known, just that the other options are removed.

The other slight difference is that 5.h3 stops Black playing the ..Bg4/..Nfd7 a move earlier. As the ..Bg4 line isn't supposed to be all that, then removing that option might be a very small concession.

If there is a difference in the move orders then it is very subtle. I think with 5.h3 you are committed (obviously) to the h3 lines where as with 5.Nf3 you allow black to vary from a classical position for one more move.

If someone as White is very happy playing their h3 lines and doesn't care for anything slighty more correct against alternatives then 5.h3 will get them their favourite lines.
5.Nf3/6.h3 allows for a slightly wider repertoire to take advantage of lesser Black lines but that would need more opening work.

P.S: I'm trying to decide on the same question.
  
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #2 - 04/21/10 at 16:47:53
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Apparently most people feel that way... Undecided
  
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GMGolubev
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Re: 5. h3 or 6. h3
Reply #1 - 04/19/10 at 22:32:15
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jitb wrote on 04/18/10 at 12:47:09:
I was thinking about taking up the krasenkow system, as covered in the book by Markos. But in the eco system there are only entries for 5. h3. Which move order is better?


neither is better, perhaps
  
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jitb
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5. h3 or 6. h3
04/18/10 at 12:47:09
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I was thinking about taking up the krasenkow system, as covered in the book by Markos. But in the eco system there are only entries for 5. h3. Which move order is better?
  
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