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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted? (Read 12804 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #11 - 08/13/10 at 03:34:56
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TopNotch wrote on 08/12/10 at 16:07:47:

Morss's analysis is a decade old and can be improved significantly in many places for White as he would be the first to admit.

No doubt this is likely to be the case, and the 14.c3! variation you give nicely illustrates your point.  It's a pretty line (yours?).

While it's true that you didn't actually say that 6...c6 was better than 6...a6, this is what I had inferred (and perhaps implied that I had inferred?).  Sorry about that, and thanks for sharing that nifty improvement.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #10 - 08/12/10 at 16:07:47
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OstapBender wrote on 08/12/10 at 05:25:08:
I was under the impression that 6...a6 was preferable to 6...c6 based on what Mark Morss (Markovich) wrote about this line in a Hard Chess column back in 1999.


Ok, maybe it's preferable, but as I said it's no picnic. Morss's analysis is a decade old and can be improved significantly in many places for White as he would be the first to admit.

I will leave you with an example to emphasize my point in one of Morss's critical lines:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6! 7.Be2! Nxe4 8.dxc5 Nxc5 9.b4 Ne6 10.f4 Nc6 11.f5 Qf6 Morss’s idea for the defense, after which he gives  12.fxe6! Qxa1 13.exf7+ Kf8 14.Be3 (14.Bf4 Qd4+) 14...Qe5! Stating that while White has a good deal of compensation for the exchange, it seems that Black will be able to maintain the balance. 

Fair enough, but going back to the position after 13…Kf8, White has the much stronger 14.c3! when 14…Qxb1 15.Bd3 Qxa2 16.Re1 is clearly better for White.

Tops Smiley
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #9 - 08/12/10 at 05:25:08
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I was under the impression that 6...a6 was preferable to 6...c6 based on what Mark Morss (Markovich) wrote about this line in a Hard Chess column back in 1999.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #8 - 08/11/10 at 21:20:51
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Unfortunately, 6...a6 is no picnic either.

Of course, worse comes to worse I can always put this knowledge to good use for White now.  Wink

Tops Smiley
  
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Paddy
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #7 - 08/11/10 at 12:10:27
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TopNotch wrote on 08/11/10 at 04:56:27:
Has anyone found a way to make this line acceptable for black yet?

Tops Smiley


I certainly haven't yet, sorry Tops, but I'm wondering why Black can't simply avoid this mess with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 a6 instead of 6...c6. That's what I relied on when I used to play the Classical many moons ago.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #6 - 08/11/10 at 04:56:27
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Has anyone found a way to make this line acceptable for black yet?

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #5 - 04/29/10 at 16:36:50
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I was just looking at proust's attachment.  He analyses the following position:

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* and claims after 22.Rfd1 Bd8 23.d7 Qc7 24.Qh6 that "a computer may hold this, but a human? Never."

I thought that 22.Rad1, (adding an eventual Rxf6 to the list of threats), was better, but now I'm not so sure.  Following your line, 22...Bd8 23.d7 Qc7 24.Qh6 Bf6 25.Qf8 Bd8 26.c5 ( 26.b5 b6 stymies White) 26...a6! gives Black good fighting chances.

I also looked at 22.c5, but just couldn't make it work.

So, 22.Rfd1 may be the exclam move of the variation, and not Sokolov's 20.a4.

(For the full variation, pls see proust's original post.)
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #4 - 04/27/10 at 12:39:12
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MNb wrote on 04/27/10 at 10:18:27:
When I looked at this line I found 10...Bb6 11.Bh6 Ng4+ 12.Kh1 Nxh6 13.Qxh6 Bd4! (that's why 10...Bb6 is better) 14.c3 Bxe5 15.Bd3 d6 16.Nd2 Be6 and I think matters unclear. Sure Black's king is unsafe, but White is not fully developed yet either. Black may play ...Kd7 and eventually ...Kc7, when White will find it hard to break through.


I had considered this and decided that more critical was 13...Bd4 14.Nd2! Qe7 (14...Bxa1 15.Rxa1 Qe7 16.Ne4!) 15.Rae1 with a mounting initiative for white, and a lot of problems yet to solve for black.

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MNb
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #3 - 04/27/10 at 10:18:27
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When I looked at this line I found 10...Bb6 11.Bh6 Ng4+ 12.Kh1 Nxh6 13.Qxh6 Bd4! (that's why 10...Bb6 is better) 14.c3 Bxe5 15.Bd3 d6 16.Nd2 Be6 and I think matters unclear. Sure Black's king is unsafe, but White is not fully developed yet either. Black may play ...Kd7 and eventually ...Kc7, when White will find it hard to break through.
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #2 - 04/27/10 at 03:49:27
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Here is Sokolov's analysis of the line in pgn format, with a couple of sidebars by yours truly.  I hope uploading this for ease of study is ok with the powers that be?
  
c65_10b4_002.pgn ( 1 KB | Downloads )
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Re: Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
Reply #1 - 04/27/10 at 01:11:55
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What does he suggest as the best line of play? 

Initially, I thought black at least had a draw with 10...Nh3+ 11.Kh1 Nf2+ 12.Kg1 etc but 12.Rxf2! Bxf2 13. Bg5 looks nasty. So the position is trickier than it looks but I don't see anything immediately horrible after 10...Bb6 (or maybe 10...Bd4 first). I guess the advantage lies in white's queenside being easier to develop than black's. I think I would rather be white over the board here but it wouldn't surprise me if engines don't agree.



  
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TopNotch
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Classical Ruy - A Popular Line Busted?
04/25/10 at 23:48:18
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In Ivan Sokolov's recent book, The Ruy Lopez Revisited, he gives the following as a possible refutation to a well established line of the Classical which runs:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Bc5 5.Nxe5 Nxe5 6.d4 c6 (Recently played by Anand) 7.dxe5 Nxe4 8.Qg4 Nxf2 9.Qxg7 Rf8 10.b4!N +/- Soklolov now claims that it could well be that 8.Qg4! just kills this entire line.

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Is Sokolov correct and if so why is it that this line has not been tested in Grandmaster praxis thus far?

Toppy Smiley
  
The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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