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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. (Read 45425 times)
Sandman
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #53 - 10/31/19 at 12:15:36
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Thanks everyone for your comments and advice. I appreciate it.
  
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CanadianClub
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #52 - 10/29/19 at 13:42:47
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RoleyPoley wrote on 10/29/19 at 11:01:13:
CanadianClub wrote on 10/29/19 at 08:20:25:
Sandman wrote on 10/28/19 at 17:57:55:
Is there a particular variation of the french I should look at? Winawer or McCutcheon perhaps?

Thanks gang for your advice.


In practical terms, I'll say that you better study the Winawer than the McCutcheon because you will get the first plenty of times over the board.... but the McCutcheon involves some work to do and it will appear very few times in real games.


Wouldnt the mcCutcheon be studied in conjunction with the Classical? When combined does it take more effort than the winawer to study?



I depends the line you are trying to learn in the Winawer. The lines where the Queen takes g7 and h7 have a lot of theory, but at club level you are going to destroy White most of the times because of preparation on this crazy lines. Lines with a quick b6 by Black, or lines with a quick Qa5-Qa4 by Black usually not too much.

I think you are going to play way more Classicals than McCutcheons if you play 3...Nf6.

Salut,
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #51 - 10/29/19 at 11:01:13
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CanadianClub wrote on 10/29/19 at 08:20:25:
Sandman wrote on 10/28/19 at 17:57:55:
Is there a particular variation of the french I should look at? Winawer or McCutcheon perhaps?

Thanks gang for your advice.


In practical terms, I'll say that you better study the Winawer than the McCutcheon because you will get the first plenty of times over the board.... but the McCutcheon involves some work to do and it will appear very few times in real games.


Wouldnt the mcCutcheon be studied in conjunction with the Classical? When combined does it take more effort than the winawer to study?

  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #50 - 10/29/19 at 08:20:25
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Sandman wrote on 10/28/19 at 17:57:55:
Is there a particular variation of the french I should look at? Winawer or McCutcheon perhaps?

Thanks gang for your advice.


In practical terms, I'll say that you better study the Winawer than the McCutcheon because you will get the first plenty of times over the board.... but the McCutcheon involves some work to do and it will appear very few times in real games.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #49 - 10/28/19 at 17:57:55
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Is there a particular variation of the french I should look at? Winawer or McCutcheon perhaps?

Thanks gang for your advice.
  
“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy.
That's how far the world is from where I am.
Just one bad day.”
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #48 - 10/26/19 at 08:09:23
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/25/19 at 17:47:40:
For Leningraders I suppose it is the Sicilian, although I knew one master who played the Alekhine.

I think for Leningraders the Pirc/Modern complex is best suited. Mikhail Gurevich is one example, he begins with 1.d4 d6 to avoid the Anti-Dutch.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #47 - 10/25/19 at 23:53:35
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French, indeed. Stonewall Dutch players know that the proper middlegame plan is to improve the scope of the poorly placed light-square bishop or to trade it off.  In order for this plan to hold value, one's opening play must first go about the business of making the light-square bishop into a bad one.  Hence, the French.

A better question is whether chess becomes more enjoyable or worthwhile by purposely steering toward the same blocked-up structure all the time.  Personally I prefer a varied and flexible approach.  But that is not the question asked.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #46 - 10/25/19 at 17:47:40
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I was going to answer the French, but Monocle's answer says it all. For Leningraders I suppose it is the Sicilian, although I knew one master who played the Alekhine.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #45 - 10/25/19 at 15:37:38
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Sandman wrote on 10/25/19 at 15:09:16:
Thanks Katar.

Another dutch question...... what do dutch players play against 1.e4? Is it the Sicilian? And if so, which Sicilian fits in or makes most sense to go with the Dutch? If it helps, I'm playing London as white and Dutch as black. 



A lot of Stonewall and Classical Dutch players opt for the French against 1.e4, which allows them to also play 1.d4 e6 and avoid a lot of anti-Dutch sidelines.  Simon Williams and Simen Agdestein both use the 1.d4 e6 move order to reach the Dutch, and Botvinnik used to as well.  I used to do this myself when I was starting out, and am always flirting with the idea of going back to it.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #44 - 10/25/19 at 15:09:16
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Thanks Katar.

Another dutch question...... what do dutch players play against 1.e4? Is it the Sicilian? And if so, which Sicilian fits in or makes most sense to go with the Dutch? If it helps, I'm playing London as white and Dutch as black. 

  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #43 - 05/21/19 at 18:29:18
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Shadow, I think Black is more or less equal in the symmetrical position with the closed center.  So, you easily equalized and that is a success and all you can ask from the opening.   
Probably Black first goes c7-c5 and only then decides among multiple plans (e.g., b6, Ba6 or Qb6 or Qe8-Kside or Bd7-e8-Kside, or possibly trying to gear up for g7-g5 (risky) at the right moment (or some combination of these).  In the Stonewall it seems to me Black has to be patient and alert - in other words, you have to mentally accept a slow buildup and a long grind.  I do not think it is an opening designed to quickly punish anything since Black closes up the center at the first opportunity.  GL
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #42 - 05/21/19 at 11:58:48
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Hello gang,

I've just picked up the Dutch Stonewall and curious how to play it against the colle/stonewall and their ilk (london/torre/barry, etc etc)? particularly the ideas and plans/themes............

Played my first game recently with the Dutch Stonewall that went 1. d4 f5 2.e3 e6 3.Bd3 d5 4.f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. Nbd2 o-o 7.Ne5 and white was just whipping out moves on autopilot and used no time at all. At this point I remember thinking or feeling that I should have "more" against this guy/opening. And...... I realize now I probably should have played Nf6 before e6.....live & learn.

I looked through the two dutch books I have - - Win with the Dutch Stonewall (Johnsen) and Dutch Stonewall (Aagard) and didn't see any mention/suggestions against Ne5 which is a common move in the stonewall attack..... did I overlook it in the notes or is it not covered?

Anyhooooo, if you have any advice, suggestions, or resources I'd appreciate it. I'm a class player and at my level I see a lot of those "system" openings so I could really use the help. It just seems like there should be a way to make these folks pay for their insolence.   Grin
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #41 - 05/05/10 at 09:38:49
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MNb wrote on 05/05/10 at 03:04:55:
If White plays Be2 iso Bd3 Black should consider 6...b6 iso 6...d6. Still 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.c4 (White postpones his decision) 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.Be2 Nc6 9.0-0 Ne4 looks playable too. After 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Nd2 Black has ...Nxd4. After 11.Ne1 Bf6 Black will prepare for ...e5 again.


Black seems to be fine here. White also has the common prophylactic move 9.Bh2 Ne4 with a possible continuation 10.d5 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Nb8 12.Nd4 e5 but I don't see anything here for White (13.Ne6 Bxe6 14.dxe6 Na6; 13.Nb5 Na6).
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #40 - 05/05/10 at 03:04:55
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If White plays Be2 iso Bd3 Black should consider 6...b6 iso 6...d6. Still 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.c4 (White postpones his decision) 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.Be2 Nc6 9.0-0 Ne4 looks playable too. After 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Nd2 Black has ...Nxd4. After 11.Ne1 Bf6 Black will prepare for ...e5 again.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #39 - 05/05/10 at 00:28:30
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Another idea for Black: After 13.Nd4, Black could consider 13..Ne4. A similar position was reached in Benjamin-Wolff, USA jr Ch, New York 1983. I found this referenced in Johnson and Kovacevic's Win with the London System: "Black had fine chances in an unbalanced position" (Identical position, except White had played Bh2 instead of 0-0 in the game at that point, which would cut out the pawn sacrifice with ..e5 I mentioned earlier.)

Incidentally, all this makes me wonder about the relative merits of Be2 in these positions. I know that this development is often preferred against the KID and Gruenfeld setups in the London. It seems especially relevant if White plays c4.
  
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