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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall. (Read 15173 times)
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #43 - 05/21/19 at 18:29:18
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Shadow, I think Black is more or less equal in the symmetrical position with the closed center.  So, you easily equalized and that is a success and all you can ask from the opening. 
Probably Black first goes c7-c5 and only then decides among multiple plans (e.g., b6, Ba6 or Qb6 or Qe8-Kside or Bd7-e8-Kside, or possibly trying to gear up for g7-g5 (risky) at the right moment (or some combination of these).  In the Stonewall it seems to me Black has to be patient and alert - in other words, you have to mentally accept a slow buildup and a long grind.  I do not think it is an opening designed to quickly punish anything since Black closes up the center at the first opportunity.  GL
  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #42 - 05/21/19 at 11:58:48
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Hello gang,

I've just picked up the Dutch Stonewall and curious how to play it against the colle/stonewall and their ilk (london/torre/barry, etc etc)? particularly the ideas and plans/themes............

Played my first game recently with the Dutch Stonewall that went 1. d4 f5 2.e3 e6 3.Bd3 d5 4.f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bd6 6. Nbd2 o-o 7.Ne5 and white was just whipping out moves on autopilot and used no time at all. At this point I remember thinking or feeling that I should have "more" against this guy/opening. And...... I realize now I probably should have played Nf6 before e6.....live & learn.

I looked through the two dutch books I have - - Win with the Dutch Stonewall (Johnsen) and Dutch Stonewall (Aagard) and didn't see any mention/suggestions against Ne5 which is a common move in the stonewall attack..... did I overlook it in the notes or is it not covered?

Anyhooooo, if you have any advice, suggestions, or resources I'd appreciate it. I'm a class player and at my level I see a lot of those "system" openings so I could really use the help. It just seems like there should be a way to make these folks pay for their insolence.   Grin
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #41 - 05/05/10 at 09:38:49
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MNb wrote on 05/05/10 at 03:04:55:
If White plays Be2 iso Bd3 Black should consider 6...b6 iso 6...d6. Still 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.c4 (White postpones his decision) 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.Be2 Nc6 9.0-0 Ne4 looks playable too. After 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Nd2 Black has ...Nxd4. After 11.Ne1 Bf6 Black will prepare for ...e5 again.


Black seems to be fine here. White also has the common prophylactic move 9.Bh2 Ne4 with a possible continuation 10.d5 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Nb8 12.Nd4 e5 but I don't see anything here for White (13.Ne6 Bxe6 14.dxe6 Na6; 13.Nb5 Na6).
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #40 - 05/05/10 at 03:04:55
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If White plays Be2 iso Bd3 Black should consider 6...b6 iso 6...d6. Still 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.c4 (White postpones his decision) 0-0 6.Nc3 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.Be2 Nc6 9.0-0 Ne4 looks playable too. After 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Nd2 Black has ...Nxd4. After 11.Ne1 Bf6 Black will prepare for ...e5 again.
  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #39 - 05/05/10 at 00:28:30
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Another idea for Black: After 13.Nd4, Black could consider 13..Ne4. A similar position was reached in Benjamin-Wolff, USA jr Ch, New York 1983. I found this referenced in Johnson and Kovacevic's Win with the London System: "Black had fine chances in an unbalanced position" (Identical position, except White had played Bh2 instead of 0-0 in the game at that point, which would cut out the pawn sacrifice with ..e5 I mentioned earlier.)

Incidentally, all this makes me wonder about the relative merits of Be2 in these positions. I know that this development is often preferred against the KID and Gruenfeld setups in the London. It seems especially relevant if White plays c4.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #38 - 05/04/10 at 23:20:10
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Quote:
Apparently. 15...Be6 16.Nxc7 Bxc7 17.Bxc7 Qf7 wins the exchange.


Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I missed that! I understand the exchange sacrifice comment now. The exchange sacrifice actually seems somewhat promising though, but I'd say it's a complicated game now. Maybe both Black and White have reason to be happy.

18.Bh2 Bc4 19.Qxf5 Bxf1 20.Rxf1

Maybe White has chances through mobilizing the e-pawn, but it doesn't look clear.

Quote:
That's true, but in return Black will be able to complete his/her development and exactly that is White's main trump: 18.Bd6 Be7 19.Rfd1 Rd8. Black's pieces aren't less active than White's here, eg 20.Rd2 h6 21.Qh4 Bc6 (counting tempi is a tricky business; I would say the bishop is better placed here than on e6 and it's there thanks to White's 13th) 22.Rad1 Ne4. This seems to lead to simplifications and equality, though Black still has a bishop vs. knight and a queenside majority.
Another idea is 17...h6 (iso 17...c5) 18.Nf3 c5 19.Rfd1 Be6 20.Qa6 Bc8 21.Qd3 Bb7 because of 22.Qxf5 Nh5 equal and perhaps even a draw.


I don't see anything incisive yet for White here, so indeed it appears Black has sufficient defensive resources. I admit that 13.Ng5 looks artificial, but it has its points. The 15.Ndb5 line still looks interesting, but seems to lead to a complicated game and it appears the exchange sacrifice is critical for evaluation. Thanks, I think I have a much better appreciation for Black's resources now; however, I get the feeling though that I've just touched the surface of the possibilities in the initial position. Maybe I'll see more clearly after some rest. The Classical is sometimes a headache. Tongue
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #37 - 05/04/10 at 22:12:20
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:36:43:
MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 20:50:10:
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 13.Nd4 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Ndb5 and why ...Bxb5 ? 15...Be6 and 15...Qf7 look better to me. Either White must give up an exchange for some, perhaps enough compensation or admit that 15.Ndb5 was useless.


The threat of 16.Nxc7 was the main idea behind the move 15.Ndb5. Is there something I'm missing?


Apparently. 15...Be6 16.Nxc7 Bxc7 17.Bxc7 Qf7 wins the exchange.

ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:36:43:
13.Ng5 is disruptive of Black's development more than anything else, so that White can better exploit his development lead.

Is it? Or is Ng5 just misplaced?

13.Ng5 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Qc4+ Kh8 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qc4
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/04/10 at 21:36:43:
17..c5 weakens d6 though, so I am not sure this solves Black's problems. I think I would consider a move like 18.Bd6 followed by Rd1 to exploit the development lead and also Black would lose the bishop pair.

That's true, but in return Black will be able to complete his/her development and exactly that is White's main trump: 18.Bd6 Be7 19.Rfd1 Rd8. Black's pieces aren't less active than White's here, eg 20.Rd2 h6 21.Qh4 Bc6 (counting tempi is a tricky business; I would say the bishop is better placed here than on e6 and it's there thanks to White's 13th) 22.Rad1 Ne4. This seems to lead to simplifications and equality, though Black still has a bishop vs. knight and a queenside majority.
Another idea is 17...h6 (iso 17...c5) 18.Nf3 c5 19.Rfd1 Be6 20.Qa6 Bc8 21.Qd3 Bb7 because of 22.Qxf5 Nh5 equal and perhaps even a draw.

PS: you're welcome.
« Last Edit: 05/04/10 at 23:26:32 by MNb »  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #36 - 05/04/10 at 21:36:43
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MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 20:50:10:
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 13.Nd4 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Ndb5 and why ...Bxb5 ? 15...Be6 and 15...Qf7 look better to me. Either White must give up an exchange for some, perhaps enough compensation or admit that 15.Ndb5 was useless.


The threat of 16.Nxc7 was the main idea behind the move 15.Ndb5. Is there something I'm missing?

Quote:
When playing the IZ Black always has to take every idea for White seriously, because play is so imbalanced. A suboptimal move by White met with a suboptimal move by Black still can lead to disaster for the latter. At the other hand: what is Ng5 exactly doing there? 13.Ng5 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Qc4+ Kh8 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qc4 and I would prefer c5 18.Rfd1 Be7. The attempt to double on the d-file can be met with 19.Rd2 b5 20.Qb3 h6 (Black has a specific idea in mind) 21.Nf3 b4 22.Nd5 Ne4.


13.Ng5 is disruptive of Black's development more than anything else, so that White can better exploit his development lead. Compared to 13.Nd4, the d-file is not blocked and White does not have the congestion problem with his queen that he had earlier.

17..c5 weakens d6 though, so I am not sure this solves Black's problems. I think I would consider a move like 18.Bd6 followed by Rd1 to exploit the development lead and also Black would lose the bishop pair.

Quote:
If I have learned one thing about the IZ it is not to underestimate any setup for White. Things easily can go wrong. At the other hand Black has good prospects of taking over the initiative, hence my optimism. In this particular case I like Black's pair of bishops. And c4-c5 opens the position further ...


I appreciate you sharing your experience here with me, since I started learning both the IZ (synonymous with Classical, correct?) and the Stonewall in recent months. I like the concept of this approach against the "lesser" lines, but I also want to be careful. Of course, an ambitious approach entails greater risk and often takes more study. Smiley

I realize the long-term benefits of the bishop pair, but opening the position is designed to exploit White's temporary lead in development. This happens, for instance, quite often in some lines of the c3 Sicilian. My sense of danger is on red alert, and I want to be sure before entering lines like these. In some lines, White forces Black to relinquish his bishop pair, thus consolidating White's temporary advantages.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #35 - 05/04/10 at 20:50:10
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1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0 d6 7.h3 Qe8 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 13.Nd4 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Ndb5 and why ...Bxb5 ? 15...Be6 and 15...Qf7 look better to me. Either White must give up an exchange for some, perhaps enough compensation or admit that 15.Ndb5 was useless.

When playing the IZ Black always has to take every idea for White seriously, because play is so imbalanced. A suboptimal move by White met with a suboptimal move by Black still can lead to disaster for the latter. At the other hand: what is Ng5 exactly doing there? 13.Ng5 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Qc4+ Kh8 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qc4 and I would prefer c5 18.Rfd1 Be7. The attempt to double on the d-file can be met with 19.Rd2 b5 20.Qb3 h6 (Black has a specific idea in mind) 21.Nf3 b4 22.Nd5 Ne4.

If I have learned one thing about the IZ it is not to underestimate any setup for White. Things easily can go wrong. At the other hand Black has good prospects of taking over the initiative, hence my optimism. In this particular case I like Black's pair of bishops. And c4-c5 opens the position further ...
  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #34 - 05/04/10 at 17:56:14
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MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 16:12:38:
After 14.c5 dxc5 15.Nxf5 Qf7 16.Ng3 Black has so many reasonable moves available that I find it impossible at the moment to figure out which one is most promising. And 15.Qc4+ is also met with Qf7. With the pair of bishops there is no reason why Black should avoid the exchange of queens. 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qa3 and again Black has a wide choice.


I agree with 15.Qc4+ Qf7. I think Black has solved his problems here.

I think c5 is an important resource to consider, because it is perhaps White's most direct approach. You give 14.c5 dxc5 15.Nxf5 Qf7 16.Ng3 and seem to be very optimistic about Black's chances. I'm not sure I agree, but after looking more closely at Black's options, I don't see a good response to 15..Nh5.

So neither of those look good to me now. Maybe I jumped on those two a little too quickly without considering all of Black's options...

But did you consider 14.c5 dxc5 15.Ndb5? This idea occurred to me earlier, but maybe I should have pursued it further: 15.Nbd5 Bxb5 16.Nxb5 Rf7 (16..Qf7 17.Qxf5, edit: here also 16..Qc6 deserves consideration) 17.Qc4 b6?! (edit: Qc6 looks better, but White seems to have decent compensation) 18.Bxc7

Any ideas for Black here? (see edit)

Maybe I have missed something again, but I hope this at least provokes some thought. Thanks.

(Edit: I also think the c5 idea with 13.Ng5 deserves consideration. Actually this was my first intuition, and I am not so sure it's easy to counter: 13.Ng5 Bd7 14.c5 dxc5 15.Qc4+ Kh8 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qc4 h6 [dubious perhaps- maybe there is something better? My feeling is that Black will have some difficulty with development while White can easily activate the rooks.] 18.Nf3 Be6 19.Qd3 and I like White's development. I think the attempt to regain the pawn immediately with Qc4+ here is much better than the analogous line with 13.Nd4, so I think 13.Ng5 is important to consider.)
« Last Edit: 05/04/10 at 20:08:30 by ChevyBanginStyle »  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #33 - 05/04/10 at 16:12:38
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After 14.c5 dxc5 15.Nxf5 Qf7 16.Ng3 Black has so many reasonable moves available that I find it impossible at the moment to figure out which one is most promising. And 15.Qc4+ is also met with Qf7. With the pair of bishops there is no reason why Black should avoid the exchange of queens. 16.Qxc5 b6 17.Qa3 and again Black has a wide choice.
  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #32 - 05/04/10 at 12:48:51
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MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 11:37:54:
I don't really see White's central pressure. Black has superb control over square e4 after 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 while 13.Nd4 Bd7 (more solid Bc8, but Black wants to keep the rooks connected even if it costs a pawn) 14.Nxf5 Qg6 15.e4 Nxe4 16.Qxe4 Bxf5 17.Qxb7 Bh4 18.Nd5 Rae8 looks interesting. It is more difficult to deploy Black's pieces after 13.Rfd1 but Nd7 with ideas of ...Nc5 and ...Qf7 should be sufficient for equality. In the long run Black's pair of bishops may count.
That pawn sac may be playable as well.

If all this doesn't appeal, there is always 6...b6.


Actually I'm interested in this line from both sides as I think it might be slightly underrated.

In your line, I am concerned about ideas with c5 when it seems difficult for Black to untangle:

8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 13.Nd4 Bd7

Here 14.c5 dxc5 15.Qc4+ Kh8 16.Qxc5 looks annoying and it seems like 15.Nxf5 may even be stronger: 15..Qg6 16.Qc4+ Kh8 17.Ng3 b6 18.Nb5 looks difficult to meet.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #31 - 05/04/10 at 11:37:54
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I don't really see White's central pressure. Black has superb control over square e4 after 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6 10.d5 Nb4 11.dxe6 Nxd3 12.Qxd3 Bxe6 while 13.Nd4 Bd7 (more solid Bc8, but Black wants to keep the rooks connected even if it costs a pawn) 14.Nxf5 Qg6 15.e4 Nxe4 16.Qxe4 Bxf5 17.Qxb7 Bh4 18.Nd5 Rae8 looks interesting. It is more difficult to deploy Black's pieces after 13.Rfd1 but Nd7 with ideas of ...Nc5 and ...Qf7 should be sufficient for equality. In the long run Black's pair of bishops may count.
That pawn sac may be playable as well.

If all this doesn't appeal, there is always 6...b6.
  

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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #30 - 05/04/10 at 11:05:27
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MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 10:24:32:
Well, I wrote nothing about 8...b6 and 8...Ne4, did I? Both moves look misplaced to me.

MNb wrote on 05/02/10 at 13:46:58:
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0
a) 6...d6 7.h3 Qe8 followed by ...Bd8 and ...Nc6. The simple plan is e6-e5-e4 winning a piece. To avoid this White has to make a concession.


If you rather rely on the positional insight of your engines than on the human one I can't help you I am afraid. At beforehand I will tell you that I won't give a dime for silicon evaluations after 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6.
Eg after 10.d5 (or Black will play 10...e5) Nb4 11.Bb1 e5 12.Bh2 Na6 13.a3 Nc5 14.b4 Nce4 Black is fine. All his/her pieces can be brought into an all out attack against White's king. Typical ideas are f5-f4 and g7-g5-g4.


I think White is able to exert central pressure with 11.dxe6. This is the line that would concern me most as Black. However, maybe 10.d5 e5 11.dxc6 exf4 12.cxb7 Bxb7 13.exf4 Ne4 offers Black decent compensation for the pawn.
  
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Re: I'm Starting out with the dutch stonewall.
Reply #29 - 05/04/10 at 10:55:14
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MNb wrote on 05/04/10 at 10:24:32:
Well, I wrote nothing about 8...b6 and 8...Ne4, did I? Both moves look misplaced to me.

MNb wrote on 05/02/10 at 13:46:58:
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bf4 Nf6 4.e3 Be7 5.Bd3 0-0 6.0-0
a) 6...d6 7.h3 Qe8 followed by ...Bd8 and ...Nc6. The simple plan is e6-e5-e4 winning a piece. To avoid this White has to make a concession.


If you rather rely on the positional insight of your engines than on the human one I can't help you I am afraid. At beforehand I will tell you that I won't give a dime for silicon evaluations after 8.c4 Bd8 9.Nc3 Nc6.
Eg after 10.d5 (or Black will play 10...e5) Nb4 11.Bb1 e5 12.Bh2 Na6 13.a3 Nc5 14.b4 Nce4 Black is fine. All his/her pieces can be brought into an all out attack against White's king. Typical ideas are f5-f4 and g7-g5-g4.


I kind of expected this kind of reply and I totally agree with you. Problem is that I lack the positional insight. Thanks for the input. I should be able to wrap up this particular variation now.
  
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