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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C41: Bologan on Philidor (Read 63478 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #57 - 09/05/19 at 23:01:46
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Keano wrote on 09/02/19 at 03:06:19:
Many more years on, I still think the suggestion of @Matemax of  [7 a4 c6 8 Ba2 h6 9 Nh4] 9...ed4 10.Qd4 d5 is a clean equalizer.

Agreed. but what on 9 h3 or 9 Re1? The numerous lines and transpositions here are mind-boggling (after 9 Re1, for instance, Black has 9 ...a5, 9 ...b6, 9 ...Qc7, 9 ...ed, 9 ... Re8 and 9 ...Nh7)! I haven't even begun to get my head around them, but I have noticed that in quite a few different lines White seems to score best with h3 and/or Re1 plans (rather than e.g. Qe2).
  
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #56 - 09/04/19 at 12:21:10
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Thank You, nice post I will look at more after holiday. I was just trying to make sense of the games TopNotch presented to squeeze Black, your post is much more understandable, and Thank You! Cheers, AJ
  
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #55 - 09/04/19 at 03:42:16
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I made some comments on your line.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nd7 4.Bc4 c6 5.O-O Be7 6.Nc3

Theory says black's move order is inaccurate. White has 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Ng5 gaining the bishop pair (+/- according to everybody).

6...Ngf6 7.a4 O-O 8.Ba2

8.Ba2 is not in S.Kasparov at all (2015, A Cunning Chess Opening Repertoire for Black), nor is 8.Qe2. Only 8.Re1 and briefly 8.a5 are given.

8...b6

Kosten (1992, Winning with the Philidor) gives 8...b6!.

Bauer (2006, The Philidor Files) gives 8...b6!?, but 8...a5 is the Yu Shaoteng - Bauer game quoted earlier.

Barsky (2010, The Modern Philidor Defence) also prefers 8...a5, following Rogulj - Nevednichy, Bled 1992 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=1964184 (= according to Barsky).

9.Qe2 Bb7

Kosten gives 9...a6! with no analysis. This predates the Motwani - Rowson game.

10.Rd1 Qc7 11.dxe5

d4xe5 then Nf3-h4 is the "traditional" (e.g. 1970s theory) way to handle the position.

Kosten prefers the immediate 11.Nh4, quoting Fedorowicz - Cifuentes Parada, Buenos Aires 1991 (round 3) https://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=2048548 (+= according to Kosten).

11...dxe5 12.Nh4 Nc5 13.Nf5 Bc8 14.Nxe7+

I find 14.Nxe7+ to be an interesting move. My first reaction is that it's a typical "computer" move, where the computer doesn't "understand" positional play. But the computer move has some poison.

Usually in this type of position white allows ...Bc8xf5 getting black's "better" bishop. Kosten gives 14.Qf3, quoting the game Cifuentes Parada - Adams, Buenos Aires 1991 (round 2) https://www.365chess.com/view_game.php?g=2048541 (= according to Kosten).
  
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #54 - 09/03/19 at 03:45:41
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Not sure if this will post, with file attached and work.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nd7 4.Bc4 c6 5.O-O Be7 6.Nc3 Ngf6 7.a4
O-O {I imagine there are other plans for both sides before and after this move.}
8.Ba2 {I'm just trying to understand the struggles of the position. This was just a
quick run through the engine to find where Black should start looking for answers in some of TopNotch's game list.}
b6 ( 8...h6 9.Nh4 {1-0,85 Dreev Alexey S (RUS) 2670  - Minasian Artashes (ARM) 2578 , Moscow  2/15/2008 Moscow Aeroflot op-A1}
exd4 10.Qxd4 d5 11.exd5 Nb6 {(=0.00/34)} ) ( 8...Qc7 9.Qe2 b6
10.Rd1 Bb7 11.dxe5 dxe5 ( 11...Nxe5 {again this might be interesting.}
) 12.Nh4 Nc5 13.Nf5 Rad8 ( 13...Bc8 {(+0.35/30)} ) 14.Bg5 Bc8
15.Qf3 {1-0,50 Manik Mikulas (SVK) 2370  - Klemanic Emil (SVK) 2269 , Sarospatak 1994 It (open)}
Bxf5 {removing the pesky Knight.} 16.exf5 e4 17.Bf4 Bd6 {(-0.15/36) White has equalized Smiley}
) 9.Qe2 Bb7 ( 9...a6 10.Rd1 Qe8 11.Nh4 {1-0,31 Motwani Paul A (SCO) 2510  - Rowson Jonathan (SCO) 2345 , Dundee 1995 Dundee Open}
exd4 12.Rxd4 Nc5 {(+0.05/28)} ) 10.Rd1 Qc7 11.dxe5 dxe5
( 11...Nxe5 {(+0.27/27) This idea might turn out okay for Black.} )
12.Nh4 Nc5 13.Nf5 {1-0,27 Ivanov Alexander (USA) 2560  - Manik Mikulas (SVK) 2355 , Philadelphia,PA 1993 It (open)}
Bc8 14.Nxe7+ Qxe7 15.f3 Be6 16.a5 Bxa2 {(+0.27/30)} *
  

TopNotch_Philidor.pgn ( 1 KB | 66 Downloads )
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Keano
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #53 - 09/02/19 at 03:06:19
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Michael Ayton wrote on 10/10/13 at 14:47:13:
Two or three years on, I'm wondering if anyone has further thoughts or analysis on this 8 Ba2!? plan. I notice that the Bosnian GM Dizdarevic plays 8 ...Qa5!? here. Does Bauer cover this? Whatever its status I guess it's tricky and maybe less likely to run into a standard Nh4-f5 manoeuvre ..

Many more years on, I still think the suggestion of @Matemax of  9...ed4 10.Qd4 d5 is a clean equalizer.
  
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Re: C41: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #52 - 10/10/13 at 14:47:13
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Two or three years on, I'm wondering if anyone has further thoughts or analysis on this 8 Ba2!? plan. I notice that the Bosnian GM Dizdarevic plays 8 ...Qa5!? here. Does Bauer cover this? Whatever its status I guess it's tricky and maybe less likely to run into a standard Nh4-f5 manoeuvre ..
  
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Keano
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #51 - 10/07/11 at 15:42:02
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TopNotch wrote on 01/28/11 at 04:52:19:
Sure thing.

Amonatov, F - Ponkratov, P 2009; Amonatov,F - Voinov, A 2008; Shaposhnikov, E - Zablotsky, S 2008; Amonatov,F - Zablotsky, S 2007 [These games represent a more modern and accurate interpretation for black in the 'Lion', whereby he shows a good understanding of the nuances of the position, as exemplified by his retention of the light squared Bishop on the the important c8 - h3 diagonal for as long as required. This stratagem is well founded, the ramifications of which are explored a bit further in the next paragraph.  Nevertheless as the above cited games hopefully have shown, white still retains much the better chances].   

Ivanov, A - Manik, M 1993(Highly instructive and important game); Manik, M - Klemanic 1994 (Manik was sufficiently impresed that he changes sides at the first opportunity....); Manik, M - Valach, B 1995.....and never....; Manik, M - Mihalik, M 1995...looks back; Vajda, L - Markus, R 2002; Movsesian, S - Pribyl, J 1997 [These key games, in particular Ivanov - Manik, clearly illustrate  why Black players should keep the light sqaured bishop on the c8 - h3 diagonal once White retains the typical and often deadly manoeuvre of Nh4 to f5 or g6. Study these gems carefully and commit the tactical motifs to memory, they occur time and again in these Hanham structures and are vital to White's success.  [ Motwani, P - Rowson, J 1995 further reinforces the themes highlighted in this paragraph and will repay study].

Dreev, A - Minasian, A 2008 [Very important game, which makes Bologan's alternative suggestion of 8...h6 look quite dubious. I can't explain why there are so few eamples of Dreev's treatment in the databases, as it looks highly unpleasant for Black].

I hope this post has been informative.

Regards,

Toppy  Smiley


Very good post! You obviously put a lot of time into that. It certainly is an interesting system for White.

In Amonatov, F - Ponkratov, P 2009 I am slightly more concerned (from Whites point of view about 12...c5!? rather than 12...cxd5). Normally ...c5 is a bad idea for Black because he gets hit by a quick a5 from White and ends up with a bad structure. Here, even though for some reason the computer prefers  White, I think its one of those positions not so easy to handle and a complex battle lies ahead. At first sight I wouldn't mind defending Black there and Kurnosov-Predojevic, 2009 proved that Black can defend successfully, even if I'm sure both sides can improve.

I'm thinking of taking up this Philidors as a back-up defence. I see Bauer called it a good defence for "lazy players" and I'm certainly one of them!
  
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #50 - 02/16/11 at 10:45:54
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I know very well that one single game won't be enough refute almost any opening especially when we are talking about a more slower one like the philidor.

However what the game does show is that black can't just sit and wait around and wait and improve the position like my opponent did in the game (which is often how you play this for black) because of white's eventual progress demonstrated in the game. However black of course has many other ideas like playing an early a5, exd4, Nc5 unfortunately I don't quite believe in these other plans either.

I also know that the general assessment of these positions are slightly better for white but my own opinion is that white is clearly better after doing a lot of analysis on these positions and actually trying to make them work for black as I am a bit of a philidor fan myself. If someone wants to believe me it's up to them otherwise just follow the advice below, which might be the wisest decision, after all, what does a patzer like me know about tin roofs.  Wink
  

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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #49 - 02/16/11 at 08:07:31
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A game says nothing. I could as well post Azmai's game against Kasparov and say that Philidor wins! I like the flexibility of the Hanham and the title of Bologan's DVD says it all: "Fighting"

If we want an objective evaluation of this defense i think that "slightly better for White" is a fair assesment and even Philidor fans could agree. Your evaluation of "huge advantage" is misleading and just wrong. Just watch for example Shirov's DVD where he expresses his opinion and the ways that he deals with this defense and you'll see that such a super-GM cannot prove an advantage!

Also, the Antoshin variation is not as bad as most of us think that it is!
  
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #48 - 02/16/11 at 06:57:17
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He's book on philidor is probably the best out there so a chessbase DVD with him sounds really promising.

However objectively I don't quite believe in philidor unfortunately.
Through the normal move-order the only reasonable line for black is supposedly the antoshin philidor when black plays an early exd4 followed by Nf6, Be7, 0-0 which also is a bit shaky.
If black wants to get a hanham philidor he's practically forced to play it through the pirc move-order. However the problem is that I think white just has a huge edge in those positions because black has a really hard time coming up with any counter-play if white plays cautiously and the other problem is that white can actually also slowly start improving hes position more and more.

I actually played one of my best ever games against the hanham philidor some time ago which demonstrated this point quite well I think.

[Date "????.??.??"]
[Result "1-0"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[White "Conzipe"]
[Black "Might want to remain anonymous"]

1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 c6 4.a4 Nbd7 5.Nf3 e5 6.Bc4 Be7 7.O-O O-O 8.Re1 b6 9.b3 Bb7 10.Bb2 a6 11.Qd2 Qc7 12.Rad1 b5 13.Bd3 Rfe8 14.Ne2 Bf8 15.Ng3 g6 16.h4 h5 17.Bc3 Bg7 18.Ba5 Qc8 19.dxe5 dxe5 20.b4 Nf8 21.c4 bxa4 22.c5 Qg4 23.Bc4 Ne6 24.Qa2 Nh7 25.Rd7 Rab8 26.Bc7 Nhf8 27.Rxf7 Kxf7 28.Bxb8 Rxb8 29.Bxe6+ Nxe6 30.Nf5 Kf6 31.Nxe5 gxf5 32.Nxg4+ fxg4 33.e5+ Ke7 34.Qxa4 Rd8 35.Qc2 Bc8 36.Qf5 Rh8 37.Rd1 Rh6 38.f4 gxf3 39.gxf3 Bd7 40.f4 Be8 41.Rd6 Rg6+ 42.Kf2 Bh6 43.Rxc6 Bxf4 44.Rxe6+ Rxe6 45.Qxf4 Bf7 46.Ke3 Be8 47.Qg5+ Kd7 48.Kd4 Bf7 49.Qg2 Kc7 50.Qg7 Re7 51.e6
1-0
  

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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #47 - 02/12/11 at 15:23:57
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As there is no progress in finding a refutation of Bologan's idea against Nh4 I want to post a game which highlights ideas in a "sister-line" that was recently played and annotated (I give only some of the annotations of FM Lilov posted on chess.com as I am not sure, if they are free (I am a subscriber there as well)):

[Event "Tringov memorial Open"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2011.02.01"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Valeri Lilov"]
[Black "Branko Tadic"]
[WhiteElo "2402"]
[BlackElo "2518"]
[ECO "C41"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.O-O O-O 7.h3 c6 8.a4 a5 9.Qe2 That move is quite interesting, yet not so popular as the main line with 9.Re1. The idea is to free the d1 square for the rook and usethe queen from a more advanced position (FM Lilov) exd4

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Position after 9...ed4

10.Nxd4 Re8 At first sight,this move looks quite unpleasant. Black puts up his rook against the queen andprepares Bf8 followed by d5. Nevertheless, the better activity and more space give white more time to counter black's idea. (FM Lilov) 11.Ba2 Bf8 12.Qf3 Kh8 13.Rd1 Qb6 14.Bg5 Ne5 15.Qe3 Ng8 16.f4 f6 17.Bh4 Nd7 18.Qf3 Nc5 19.Bf2 Qc7 20.Rd2 Nh6 21.g4 Nf7 22.Rad1 g6 23.Bc4 In this position, having only 13minutes on my clock against 26 for my opponent, I decided to offer a draw. I couldn't see a direct way for breakthrough, though I knew that my position is better. (FM Lilov)
1/2-1/2
  
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #46 - 01/30/11 at 22:15:27
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Matemax wrote on 01/30/11 at 20:29:05:
JEH wrote on 01/30/11 at 15:17:18:
Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
8...h6 9.Nh4! is crushing for White no doubt.


I don't agree that it is crushing for White, but it seems wrong to me to weaken the already sore spot f5 with h6.

The idea of 8...h6 is to play ...Re8 and Bf8 - which is not possible without ...h6 due to Ng5. I dont understand what this has to do with the f5-square.

To call "9.Nh4!" crushing without giving any lines and ignoring the suggested moves for Black is simply - sorry to say that - arrogant. As I wrote before Black plays 9...ed4 10.Qd4 d5 and his position looks quite good. I would love Toppy to come up with something for White but I honestly I doubt it and White probably has to go for more conservative play. I really wish it would not be!


You are right that my statement sounds a bit arrogant. I just say it with confidence because we analysed it together with GM Moradiabadi this summer at the Ikaria Open at the square of Agios Kirikos (a really beautifull place to play and analyse chess!) after seeing a game from the tournament which actually continued 9.dxe5 and then 10.Nh4. Elsan said that 9.Nh4 is stronger and showed us 1 or 2 lines with the conclusion being that ...h6 is wrong. He is a Philidor player himself so i trust him.

At present i'm very busy, so i don't promise than in 1 or 2 days time i'll post some analysis here in this line. But i'll do it for sure when i get some time. Matemax, your plan indeed is what seems to be the only serious try for Black. I promise that i'll coment on it soon  Smiley
  
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #45 - 01/30/11 at 20:29:05
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JEH wrote on 01/30/11 at 15:17:18:
Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
8...h6 9.Nh4! is crushing for White no doubt.


I don't agree that it is crushing for White, but it seems wrong to me to weaken the already sore spot f5 with h6.

The idea of 8...h6 is to play ...Re8 and Bf8 - which is not possible without ...h6 due to Ng5. I dont understand what this has to do with the f5-square.

To call "9.Nh4!" crushing without giving any lines and ignoring the suggested moves for Black is simply - sorry to say that - arrogant. As I wrote before Black plays 9...ed4 10.Qd4 d5 and his position looks quite good. I would love Toppy to come up with something for White but I honestly I doubt it and White probably has to go for more conservative play. I really wish it would not be!
  
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #44 - 01/30/11 at 16:01:15
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JEH wrote on 01/30/11 at 15:17:18:
Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
8...h6 9.Nh4! is crushing for White no doubt.


I don't agree that it is crushing for White, but it seems wrong to me to weaken the already sore spot f5 with h6.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
Can anyone check the new Chess Stars Philidor book and tell us how this deals with Top's suggestions?


The short answer is that it doesn't. Only 11. h3 and 11. Qf3, and not Shaposhnikov's 11. f3

I've attached the Toppy cited games as a pgn (except for Motwani - Rowsan which I can't find the score for), and also including the game Asrian - Bocharov 2007 which is the higest rated game I've got and a win for Black with an instructive d5 break.

White seems to have snuffed this plan with the improvement in Amonatov - Voinov though in the following year.

The f3 plan seems nice for White, leaving Black to wriggle and squirm for equality.

Black does get a pummelling in the Toppy games, which made me wince as a potential Philidor player, however Black was out rated by an average of 150 rating points.




Many thanks.

I've attached the moves of Motwani-Rowson assuming that this is the right game). It was even annotated by Motwani here at Chess Publishing.
  

MotwaniVsRowson.pgn ( 0 KB | 239 Downloads )
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Re: Bologan on Philidor
Reply #43 - 01/30/11 at 15:17:18
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
8...h6 9.Nh4! is crushing for White no doubt.


I don't agree that it is crushing for White, but it seems wrong to me to weaken the already sore spot f5 with h6.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/29/11 at 10:06:52:
Can anyone check the new Chess Stars Philidor book and tell us how this deals with Top's suggestions?


The short answer is that it doesn't. Only 11. h3 and 11. Qf3, and not Shaposhnikov's 11. f3

I've attached the Toppy cited games as a pgn (except for Motwani - Rowsan which I can't find the score for), and also including the game Asrian - Bocharov 2007 which is the higest rated game I've got and a win for Black with an instructive d5 break.

White seems to have snuffed this plan with the improvement in Amonatov - Voinov though in the following year.

The f3 plan seems nice for White, leaving Black to wriggle and squirm for equality.

Black does get a pummelling in the Toppy games, which made me wince as a potential Philidor player, however Black was out rated by an average of 150 rating points.


  

Philidor.pgn ( 11 KB | 230 Downloads )

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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