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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice! (Read 5068 times)
TonyRo
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #14 - 05/12/10 at 18:24:18
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It's fairly difficult to find at any type of reasonable price though.
  
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trw
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #13 - 05/12/10 at 18:19:42
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Alias wrote on 05/12/10 at 08:53:57:
Have a look at "Chess Advantage in Black and White" by Kaufman. He recommends the Berlin and the Giouco Piano as well as a solid set of variation vs other 1.e4 e5 openings.



I would also recommend this book.
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #12 - 05/12/10 at 11:22:42
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/11/10 at 22:41:40:
I recommend Beating the Open Games by Mihail Marin and The Berlin Wall by John Cox.


That's exactly what I've used to build a 1.- e4 e5 repertoire for black. So far 1 game 1 win  Cheesy against tough opposition (although admittedly I was lucky in a drawn endgame). This weekend more of it!
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #11 - 05/12/10 at 08:53:57
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Have a look at "Chess Advantage in Black and White" by Kaufman. He recommends the Berlin and the Giouco Piano as well as a solid set of variation vs other 1.e4 e5 openings.
  

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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #10 - 05/12/10 at 07:09:30
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Stigma wrote on 05/12/10 at 05:29:53:
[quote author=474648474943564A5D2F0 link=1273613279/6#6 date=1273639985]

I meant "accepted" as in "Black accepts the pawn" rather than declining with 2...Bc5 or 2...Nc6, for example. 3...Ne7 isn't quite a main line, but when you look at who actually plays it, it seems it's more mainstream among GMs than in the thery books. But in many games Black holds on to the extra pawn and allows White a big pawn centre in return, so it may not be the absolutely simplest defence (2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 is simpler and it looks like MNb's 2...Nf6 is, too).


I didn't mean simple in terms of no imbalances. I meant more playing normal chess with clear cut ideas. Playing against a big centre can be a clear cut idea. Initially I like Ne7 but I keep Mnb's suggestion in case I don't like it after further investigation.

Stigma wrote on 05/12/10 at 05:29:53:
[quote author=474648474943564A5D2F0 link=1273613279/6#6 date=1273639985]
In the Scotch I don't know which is better, 13...Nb6 or the endgame. I'm just starting to research this line myself. Probably you should think about whether you generally prefer early simplifications or staying in the middlegame. Anyway it's nice to know there's a choice if one of them should turn out to be bad.


Actually, when you say this I think I should start looking at Nb6. There must be a bunch of threads about this here on chesspub. Only thing is I find it difficult to find things through the search function on this website.
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #9 - 05/12/10 at 07:00:31
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I want to play the Berlin and Guicco Piano that is why I chose 1...e5, but I know it might not be the best choice.

I am not 2400 yet but I hope to be (don't we all). I played the Bc5 declined for a short period but my results were mixed. I never really studied it despite having Marin's book, I just tried my luck with it by playing a bunch of informal games. I do not know if you agree with me or not but it can really be critical sometimes. I am not fond at all of having to remember whether I put my bishop on b6 or b4+ after d2-d4 or whether I should play Nf6 or Nc6 first, what I do when f4-f5, when to take exf4 and so on. These are simple things to find out but the whole idea with this repertoire was to create intuitive, simple and low-risk. 

  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #8 - 05/12/10 at 05:58:40
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Are you above 2400 or do you really play chess that little? otherwise you will face kings gambit 1/4 games. I have at the u2200 level. Its very very popular. And 2... Bc5 is about as theory lite in KG as you come imo.

If you're looking for pure positional chess that has no tactics though i'm not sure why you are going for e4 e5 it also makes no sense for a theory avoider.
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #7 - 05/12/10 at 05:29:53
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JhF wrote on 05/12/10 at 04:53:05:

Ne7 against the KG appears to be as simple as it gets, assuming it is indeed an accepted variation as you say and there are no major draw backs in terms of soundness. In that case a few hours of independent analysis should be sufficient to feel safe. I might just start a thread in the 1.e4 e5 forum where I present the result later.

I think I agree with you suggestion about the Scotch as well. The moves are self-evident and easy to remember and are all in Marin's book (which I have misplaced somewhere).

10.g3 - Which would you recommend in terms of low-risk? Rook vs minor piece endgame or Nb6 variation?


I meant "accepted" as in "Black accepts the pawn" rather than declining with 2...Bc5 or 2...Nc6, for example. 3...Ne7 isn't quite a main line, but when you look at who actually plays it, it seems it's more mainstream among GMs than in the thery books. But in many games Black holds on to the extra pawn and allows White a big pawn centre in return, so it may not be the absolutely simplest defence (2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 is simpler and it looks like MNb's 2...Nf6 is, too).

In the Scotch I don't know which is better, 13...Nb6 or the endgame. I'm just starting to research this line myself. Probably you should think about whether you generally prefer early simplifications or staying in the middlegame. Anyway it's nice to know there's a choice if one of them should turn out to be bad.
  

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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #6 - 05/12/10 at 04:53:05
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Stigma wrote on 05/12/10 at 03:14:00:

The accepted lines with ...Ne7 also look very good when played by Adams and Sokolov but I haven't seen much published theory on them: 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Ne7 or 3.Bc4 Ne7 and Black will either break with ...d5 or transfer the knight to g6.

Against the Scotch a simple, no-nonsense way is to play the 4...Nf6 main line with ...Ba6, g6, Bg7 and short castling, and then target the e5-pawn further with moves like ...Rae8, ...d6/d5 or ....f6. For example:


Ne7 against the KG appears to be as simple as it gets, assuming it is indeed an accepted variation as you say and there are no major draw backs in terms of soundness. In that case a few hours of independent analysis should be sufficient to feel safe. I might just start a thread in the 1.e4 e5 forum where I present the result later.

I think I agree with you suggestion about the Scotch as well. The moves are self-evident and easy to remember and are all in Marin's book (which I have misplaced somewhere).

10.g3 - Which would you recommend in terms of low-risk? Rook vs minor piece endgame or Nb6 variation?
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #5 - 05/12/10 at 04:27:39
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MNb wrote on 05/12/10 at 02:42:59:


Black's safest - and imo also one of the very best - against the Vienna/Bishop Game is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Na5.


That is a really good suggestions. Four moves and pretty much no theory!
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #4 - 05/12/10 at 04:22:14
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ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 05/11/10 at 22:41:40:

Have you not heard about this book already? If you haven't, you're in for a treat.


Actually I have the first edition. I find the KG declined with Bc5 still a bit too much theory for an opening I am going to face once every two years (perhaps).. I am very lazy, that is why I am creating this repertoire Wink
  
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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #3 - 05/12/10 at 03:14:00
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I agree with MNb's line against the Vienna and Bishop's game: 4...Na5 hunting down the c4-bishop (but usually not actually taking it until White spends a tempo on a4 or a3) is extremely solid.

Against the King's Gambit Kaufman's repertoire (in the book "The Chess Advantage in Black and White") leads to solid, normal-looking positions: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 exf4! reaching a "Modern Defence" while avoiding Bxd5 in the Bishop's Gambit. 

The accepted lines with ...Ne7 also look very good when played by Adams and Sokolov but I haven't seen much published theory on them: 2...exf4 3.Nf3 Ne7 or 3.Bc4 Ne7 and Black will either break with ...d5 or transfer the knight to g6.

Against the Scotch a simple, no-nonsense way is to play the 4...Nf6 main line with ...Ba6, g6, Bg7 and short castling, and then target the e5-pawn further with moves like ...Rae8, ...d6/d5 or ....f6. For example:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8. c4 Ba6 9. b3 (or 9. g3 g6 10. b3) 9... g6 and now:

A) 10. g3 Bg7 11. Bb2 O-O 12. Bg2 Rae8 13. O-O and now Black can either enter the typical Scotch rook vs minor pieces endgame with 13... Bxe5 14. Qxe5 Qxe5 15. Bxe5 Rxe5 16. cxd5 Bxf1 17. Kxf1 cxd5, or avoid it with 13...Nb6!? as played by Kosten and Hebden. 

B) 10. f4 f6 11. exf6 (11. Ba3!?) 11... Qxe2+ 12. Bxe2 Bb4+ 13. Bd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Nxf4 15. Rf1 Nxe2 16. Kxe2 Kf7 17. Kd3 Rae8 is an unbalanced endgame, probably about equal, that was mentioned in a previous thread (see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1260357793/all)

[Event "Budapest FS07 GM"]
[Site "Budapest"]
[Date "2006.07.08"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Kristjansson, Stefan"]
[Black "Pedersen, Nicolai Vesterbaek"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C45"]
[WhiteElo "2491"]
[BlackElo "2513"]
[Source "ChessBase"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nxc6 bxc6 6. e5 Qe7 7. Qe2 Nd5 8. c4 Ba6 9. b3 g6 10. f4 f6 11. exf6 Qxe2+ 12. Bxe2 Bb4+ 13. Bd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Nxf4 15. Rf1 Nxe2 16. Kxe2 Kf7 17. Kd3 Rae8 18. g4 d6 19. g5 h6 20. h4 hxg5 21. hxg5 Rh3+ 22. Kc2 Bc8 23. Rh1 Bf5+ 24. Kb2 Rh5 25. Nf3 Re2+ 26. Ka3 Be4 27. Rxh5 gxh5 28. Ng1 Re3 29. Rf1 Rg3 30. Re1 d5 31. cxd5 cxd5 32. Rc1 Rxg5 33. Nh3 Rf5 34. Rxc7+ Kxf6 35. Rxa7 Rf3 36. Ng1 Re3 37. Ra8 d4 38. Rd8 d3 39. Kb4 Rg3 40. Rf8+ Ke5 41. Rf1 Kd4 42. a4 h4 0-1



  

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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #2 - 05/12/10 at 02:42:59
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Weird enough against the KG Black can minimalize losing chances by doing a deep study of 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 (3.Bc4 Nc6) g5 4.h4 (4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 is almost a forced draw and so is 4.d4 g4) g4 6.Ne5 (there is 6.Ng5 but it does not have a good reputation) d6 7.Nxg4 Nf6 8.Nxf6+ (8.Nf2 seems to be inferior) Qxf6 8.Nc3 Nc6.
But I doubt if this is your intention.
KGeers have studied Marin too and brought up a few ideas to preserve an edge.

JhF wrote on 05/11/10 at 21:27:59:
My idea is to create a low-risk repertoire where I can get out of opening theory quickly and more rely on ideas.


So maybe you might consider 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nxe4 4.fxe5 d5 when Bücker (1986) recommended 5.d4 Nxf3+ 6.Qxf3 Qh4+ 7.Qf2 Qxf2+ 8.Kxf2 d6 and Johansson (1998 and 2004) 5.d3 Nc5 6.d4 Ne6 7.c4 Bb4+. If repertoire books for White disagree what to recommend on a sideline there is a good chance that proving an advantage is surprisingly hard. Note that Jussupow, Yermolinsky and Timoscenko have played it. Since 1985 only four games on ELO 2400+ level have been played and they were all drawn.

Black's safest - and imo also one of the very best - against the Vienna/Bishop Game is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nc6 4.d3 Na5.
  

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Re: Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
Reply #1 - 05/11/10 at 22:41:40
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I recommend Beating the Open Games by Mihail Marin and The Berlin Wall by John Cox.

Marin recommends 2..Bc5 against the King's Gambit and similar Bc5 lines against the Vienna. Against the Scotch, he recommends 4..Nf6. His recommendations are built around the Italian Game for the Black. Have you not heard about this book already? If you haven't, you're in for a treat.
  
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Positional 1...e5 repertoire - need advice!
05/11/10 at 21:27:59
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I am trying to create a solid positional repertoire against 1.e4 based on openings I already understand well as white, namely the Berlin Defence and the Guicco Piano but I still need to decide how I am going to play against the Scotch, Kings Gambit, the Vienna and the four knights.

My idea is to create a low-risk repertoire where I can get out of opening theory quickly and more rely on ideas. For certain, 1.e4 e5 is fairly positional but I feel like I want to be as positional as I can possibly get. I want to create a repertoire with good drawing chances, low chances of losing but not necessarily good chances of winning. 

Based on this, what would you advice me to play against the Scotch, Kings Gambit and Vienna?

/JhF
  
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