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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA (Read 18511 times)
kylemeister
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #17 - 05/28/10 at 17:19:42
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Incidentally 5. Nf3 was given by Taimanov as unclear in the first edition of ECO, some years before Keene's repertoire book.  It could transpose to 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dc 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. e4, which has long been considered respectable for White.
  
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #16 - 05/28/10 at 16:49:20
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LeeRoth wrote on 05/28/10 at 14:21:15:
I think we can all agree that 3.Nc3 isn't going to refute the QGA and is, in fact, one of White's lesser tries.  But IMHO its a perfectly fine developing move and fully playable for White at club level.   

The line cited above with 3..a6 is frequently given as a reason not to play 3.Nc3, but there is no reason for White to play in such a horrid way. 

First, after 3..a6, White's best response is 4.e3!.  Now if Black insists on 4..b5, White gets dangerous gambit play in which he has good comp.  It's worth noting that Rizzitano recommends playing 4..Nf6 5.Bxc4 e6 6.Nf3 c5 7.0-0 transposing into classical lines where White has played an early Nc3.  An early Nc3 isn't considered White's most testing choice in the classical, but it is a move that's been played by strong GMs and it certainly isn't bad.  Equal positions tend to result where both sides have chances.  As we say, "it's a game."   

Second, if White wants to play 4.e4, then after 4.. b5 he needs to play Keene's suggestion of 5.Nf3 instead of 5.a4.  Most books don't even consider this; Rizzitano, for example, ignores it.  Keene was somewhat dismissive of his own idea, but after 5.Nf3 Bb7 (does Black have better here?) 6.a4 b4 7.Bxc4! e6 play transposes into a side line of the 3.Nf3 a6 variation that is considered "unclear" by ECO.  See the game Pedersen-Sadler, Cannes 1995. 

 

Well, I agree with most of what you said, but if white intends not to play e4 what's the reason of Nc3 after all? Because it seems it just loses flexibility, while being exposed to b4 ideas...
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #15 - 05/28/10 at 14:21:15
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I think we can all agree that 3.Nc3 isn't going to refute the QGA and is, in fact, one of White's lesser tries.  But IMHO its a perfectly fine developing move and fully playable for White at club level.   

The line cited above with 3..a6 is frequently given as a reason not to play 3.Nc3, but there is no reason for White to play in such a horrid way. 

First, after 3..a6, White's best response is 4.e3!.  Now if Black insists on 4..b5, White gets dangerous gambit play in which he has good comp.  It's worth noting that Rizzitano recommends playing 4..Nf6 5.Bxc4 e6 6.Nf3 c5 7.0-0 transposing into classical lines where White has played an early Nc3.  An early Nc3 isn't considered White's most testing choice in the classical, but it is a move that's been played by strong GMs and it certainly isn't bad.  Equal positions tend to result where both sides have chances.  As we say, "it's a game."   

Second, if White wants to play 4.e4, then after 4.. b5 he needs to play Keene's suggestion of 5.Nf3 instead of 5.a4.  Most books don't even consider this; Rizzitano, for example, ignores it.  Keene was somewhat dismissive of his own idea, but after 5.Nf3 Bb7 (does Black have better here?) 6.a4 b4 7.Bxc4! e6 play transposes into a side line of the 3.Nf3 a6 variation that is considered "unclear" by ECO.  See the game Pedersen-Sadler, Cannes 1995. 

 
  
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #14 - 05/28/10 at 13:36:27
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TN wrote on 05/28/10 at 10:42:50:
agropop wrote on 05/28/10 at 09:23:28:
Against 3. Nc3 is also played 3...a6, and if 4.e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6.Na2 Bb7 7.f3 Nc6! is good for black. I think 3.Nc3 is not a very good choice for white. 


Agreed. If you insist on an early Nc3, play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3.



Even so, I think black equalizes fairly easily after 4...a6 5. e4 ( 5. a4?! Nc6 aiming for a5 to hold c4, when Qa4+ is not a possibility, and b3 is weak) b5 when I think white's compesation is not that great.
I have played the QGA for a while now, and feel much confortably against Nc3 based lines, where I struggle to equalize in the classical mainline...
  

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TN
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #13 - 05/28/10 at 10:42:50
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agropop wrote on 05/28/10 at 09:23:28:
Against 3. Nc3 is also played 3...a6, and if 4.e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6.Na2 Bb7 7.f3 Nc6! is good for black. I think 3.Nc3 is not a very good choice for white. 


Agreed. If you insist on an early Nc3, play 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #12 - 05/28/10 at 09:23:28
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Against 3. Nc3 is also played 3...a6, and if 4.e4 b5 5. a4 b4 6.Na2 Bb7 7.f3 Nc6! is good for black. I think 3.Nc3 is not a very good choice for white.
  
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #11 - 05/25/10 at 21:56:09
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Thanks Lee. That was very helpful.
  

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QGA
Reply #10 - 05/25/10 at 21:33:47
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Let me try to actually answer the question:  The line being asked about is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 Nc6, which starts as a QGA, but transposes into
a line of the Chigorin Defense more commonly reached by 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nc3 dxc4.  There is, of course, nothing wrong with this position for White.

The best move here is 4.Nf3.  Now 4..Nf6 5.e4 Bg4 6.Be3 e6 7.Bxc4 Bb4 8.Qc2 0-0 9.Rd1 is a main line of the Chigorin which some feel is a little bit better for White. 

As White, you need to keep an eye on your d4 pawn so that you don't lose it to ..Bxf3 and ..Nxd4.  In the move order chosen, Black doesn't get this chance.  For example, 8..Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nxd4? is a mistake that's met by 10.Bxd4 Qxd4 11.Qa4+ winning the Bishop on b4 and emerging with an extra piece.  This is one reason why Black castles on move 8.  He avoids Qa4 with check and now threatens the d4 pawn, so White protects the d4 pawn with 9.Rd1 rather than castling himself. 

If Black instead plays 4..Bg4, then you play 5.d5.  The difference is that with 4.Nf3 already in, Black can't reposition the Nc6 to the e5 square.  So Black usually tries 5..Bxf3 first and after 6.exf3 Ne5 7.Bf4 Ng6 the key move is 8.Bxc4! (This is a little trick.  If Black falls for 8..Nxf4? then 9.Bb5 c6 10.dxc6 a6 11.c7 wins.) Black usually plays 8..Nf6 when after 9.Bg3 a6 10.0-0 White has the better game. 

Hope this helps.


  
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #9 - 05/25/10 at 21:12:01
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I posted this when I was frustrated. I should have just pulled out my MCO and started studying. Sorry for wasting your time and mine. Still, thanks for the general advice and advice on which line to try, that gives me a starting place to study.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #8 - 05/25/10 at 16:33:42
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For one thing, if you look in a general reference work like ECO, NCO or MCO (once upon a time this was considered a basic step for, say, a 1655 player wanting a grounding in a particular opening ...), you will find that White can easily be worse after 3. Nc3.  Playing tricky/aggressive lines like 3. Nc3 or 3. e4 against "good players" without some actual book knowledge should be a recipe for trouble.

3. e3 is certainly the simplest good move, though recommending a sophisticated IQP book like Baburin is surely overkill here.
  
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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #7 - 05/25/10 at 12:40:53
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up and comer wrote on 05/21/10 at 06:51:51:
As white my main opening is d4 followed by c4. Normally this works well for me, as most people play the tarrasch, slav, semi-slav, etc.. but it seems like I'm getting roasted against the QGA early on in the opening. Is there a good way to learn how to handle all the early tactics black can try against white? If I can get the game beyond the beginning I tend to win, but I have been getting caught with tactics against good players before the game really even starts.


You're getting slaughted as White?  The problem is not in your choice of systems, but in your understanding of general principles. 

If someone just asked me what White's best treatment was, I would say it was 3.e4.  It also happens to be well suited to lower rated players.  If you can't play 3.e4 well, changing lines isn't going to help you.  Instead you're going to have to buckle down, play more chess, and put in more time studying basic opening principles. 

P.S.  Good comments from Alias.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #6 - 05/25/10 at 10:20:52
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up and comer wrote on 05/21/10 at 06:51:51:
As white my main opening is d4 followed by c4. Normally this works well for me, as most people play the tarrasch, slav, semi-slav, etc.. but it seems like I'm getting roasted against the QGA early on in the opening. Is there a good way to learn how to handle all the early tactics black can try against white? If I can get the game beyond the beginning I tend to win, but I have been getting caught with tactics against good players before the game really even starts.


Play 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bc4 e6 5.Nf3 c5 6.0-0 Nc6 7.a4, and study Baburin's book on IQPs. Against 3...e5, play 4.Bc4 ed4 5.ed4 Nf6 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.0-0 0-0 8.Nc3 Nc6 9.Qc2 and again see Baburin's book.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #5 - 05/25/10 at 09:14:01
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up and comer wrote on 05/25/10 at 08:43:45:
TicklyTim wrote on 05/21/10 at 11:15:34:
What variations are you trying in the QGA?
A few lines I would think it hard to get slaughtered.
The Nf3/e3 lines are pretty solid.

Is your choice vs the QGA of similar style to those vs the other openings you mentioned, or is it more aggressive?


Often more aggressive. I play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 usually. If they play Nc6 I'll often play d5, because when I've played Nf3, they play Bg4 and I have to push e3 and trap in my dark bishop. I usually like to get my bishop out before I push my e pawn and I play a fairly aggressive style.

I've tried 3. e4 as well.

I guess e3 would be the next thing to try.


Don't just try moves. Have a look at the lines properly. Check some general opening book, like NCO, FCO or similar. Look up games. Try to find games with comments. There are of course specialised books on QGA, but that might be overkill.

I'm also certain that you can find the errors that you made by comparing your moves to book moves or by checking with a decent program.

e3 is a moved played in many closed openings, QGA, slav, NID et c. You don't "trap" your bishop.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #4 - 05/25/10 at 08:43:45
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TicklyTim wrote on 05/21/10 at 11:15:34:
What variations are you trying in the QGA?
A few lines I would think it hard to get slaughtered.
The Nf3/e3 lines are pretty solid.

Is your choice vs the QGA of similar style to those vs the other openings you mentioned, or is it more aggressive?


Often more aggressive. I play 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nc3 usually. If they play Nc6 I'll often play d5, because when I've played Nf3, they play Bg4 and I have to push e3 and trap in my dark bishop. I usually like to get my bishop out before I push my e pawn and I play a fairly aggressive style.

I've tried 3. e4 as well.

I guess e3 would be the next thing to try.
  

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Re: I keep getting slaughtered in early stages QGA
Reply #3 - 05/24/10 at 10:40:54
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Girkassa wrote on 05/24/10 at 08:08:01:
The first line I can think of is 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 e6 5.Bxc4 c5 6.0-0 a6 7.a4. It provides a decent game, and I can't think of any way to get slaughtered early.

Or are you worried about any of Black's possible deviations? Is that where you get slaughtered?


Yes 7.Bb3 is the fashion's move but 7.a4 is my favorit too.
It's a strategic move, the main idea is to play against the Bishop c8.
I remember a game between kramnik and kasparov 2000 . Garry was lucky in this one!
  

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