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Normal Topic C02: Advance variation, 6.Bd3 (Read 5313 times)
Hehmer
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Re: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
Reply #5 - 05/21/10 at 20:59:56
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Thanks for the ideas, Dom.

A) I also found the game Pap-Gleizerov,Predeal 2006, which went well for Black. But Pap continued to play this line as White and deviated with 11.Nxd4 Bxd4 12.Rb1 when one opponent blundered a piece with 12...Qa4? but it looks like White gets quite a bit compensation after the better 12...Qc3 too:

[Event "Belgrade Trophy 19th"]
[Site "Belgrade"]
[Date "2006.11.26"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Pap, Misa"]
[Black "Pushkov, Nikolai"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C02"]
[WhiteElo "2430"]
[BlackElo "2482"]
[EventDate "2006.11.22"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Bd3 Bd7 7. O-O cxd4 8. cxd4 Nxd4 9. Nbd2 Bc5 10. b4 Qxb4 11. Nxd4 Bxd4 12. Rb1 Qc3 13. Nf3 Bb6 14. Qe2 h6 15. Bd2 Qc7 16. Rb4 Ne7 17. Rg4 g6 18. Rc1 Nc6 19. Rh4 O-O-O 20. Bb4 Be8 21. Qb2 Kb8 22. Bd6 1-0

I really like the moves of the white rook. Your suggestion 11...Qxd4 is not as good as it looks at first sight in view of 12.Nb3 when 12...Qxe5  is impossible because of 13.Nxc5 Qxa1 14.Qb3 with a terrible attack and 12...Qc3 13.Qe2 is good for White (+=).

B) I could not find a single game with 9...Nxf3+ 10.Nxf3 a5 and have little trust in that. We boost White's development and make ourselves a big hole on b5. 

C) 9...Nc6 scored badly, so I didn't look at it in earnest. I think the white knight is well placed after 10.Nb3 because there is no pawn on d4 and the other knight can go to g5 sometimes. But I'll have a look at 10...f6!? (Watson) and 10...Nge7. 

Right now I like 9...Ne7 10.Nxd4 Qxd4 11.Nf3 Qa4 12.b3 Qa5 best. White probably gets sufficent compensation but not more than that. The risk to get outprepared is also low.
  
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dom
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Re: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
Reply #4 - 05/21/10 at 17:37:44
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@Hehmer: thanks for games  Smiley

Maybe we need some updated assessment from J. Watson  (old one based on Pap-Gleizerov,Predeal 2006).

But I don't think it's fair to already decline the d4 pawn in this Nun-variation of Millner Barry system...like Moskalenko advices with Nh6 leading to equality (not my taste because I like to refute the gambit Millner Barry and eating one pawn).

Some ideas:

A) 9...Bc5 10.b4 Qxb4! (instead of 10...Nxf3+) ... where Black improves too using the key c3 square for queen: 11.Rb1 (11.Nxd4 Qxd4) Qc3! 

B) 9...Nxf3+ (Minev's "new or forgotten idea") 10.Nxf3 a5! (Minev again...instead of 10...Bxb4 )

C) 9...Nc6 (recommended by Psakhis and Harding...and last one is author or "four gambits to beat the French" including the Nun gambit within Minner Barry chapter) ... and now White has not so many plans with his obviously misplaced d2-knight...10.Nb3 f6!? (Watson) or 10...Nge7

  

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MartinC
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Re: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
Reply #3 - 05/21/10 at 11:16:26
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If you're that scared maybe better to go 5.. Bd7 when (as I remember at least) 6.. Nh6 works a fraction better. Watson gives some rather amusing (if known) piece sac ideas in the play the French. 

I suppose that white can always 'force' relatively similar play to this via 5.. Qb6 6 a3 Nh6 7 Bd3 Bd7 8 Bc2. Seems fractionally neglected for some reason that.
(white gets the bishops tempi back via the inevitable Bd7 -> e6.).

As for 9 Nbd2, I don't know. Would have to look up what my books have to say. I don't remember Watson being so scared but maybe a few new ideas since then.
  
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Hehmer
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Re: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
Reply #2 - 05/21/10 at 09:36:58
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Thanks for the link but TopNotch had only vague misgivings. That's better than nothing when expressed by a good player but still not much. 

6...Nh6 is sort of an emergency exit, but solid IMO. 7.dxc5 Bxc5 8.O-O Ng4 9.Qe2 Qc7 should be OK for Black since after 10.Bf4 he has 10...f6. So White probably has to play 10.Bb5 or 10.b4 Bb6 11.Bb5. 

I mentioned Moskalenko's suggestion only because I think that he is a valiant and sometimes reckless player, who usually is not afraid to defend a dangerous position when he is a pawn up or has a better structure as reward. So when he's afraid it's probably really dangerous. 

  
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chk
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Re: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
Reply #1 - 05/21/10 at 08:56:15
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I'm not an expert in this line, but I play frequently the proper Milner-Barry (9. NxNd4) and have also briefly considered this line as a viable alternative. The inclusion of an extra pair of Knights or in some cases the inclusion of the moves ...a5 & a2-a4 does not necessarily change the spirit of the gambit.

And talking about spirit, I think that the first lines you give look a bit dubious and computeresque to me and I see no real point for White to voluntarily give away 2 of his/her attacking pieces and also open the h-file for Black to use..

The last game you provide looks to have more purpose as White chases the Queen while developing and also manages to penetrate via b7 into the 7th (so Black has managed to keep the centre closed but White invaded anyway!). It also follows logically from b4 which tries to open lines.

But while I was writing that, I remembered we have had a brief discussion of this system some years ago and our friend TopNotch was not overly enthusiastic:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1171043123/2#2

And I don't see why declining the pawn by 6. ... Nh6 is better, e.g. 7. dxc5 and play in Nimzo's style (strengthen e5 and use d4 as a pivot), or play another developing move like O-O..

So not a great help re your question, just my opinion that you should stir your analysis to 6. ... cxd4 and then how to deal with 12. Rb1.  Cool
  

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Hehmer
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C02: Advance variation, 6.Bd3
05/21/10 at 08:30:07
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I'm looking for advice on how to play as Black after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.Bd3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Bd7 8.O-O Nxd4 9.Nbd2!? 

Because of this Moskalenko suggests to decline the pawn by playing 6...Nh6 7.O-O cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5. So this certainly has to be taken seriously. 

Mr. McDonald recommends 9... Bc5!? in Chesspub's March 2006 update. 

This worked well in Smerdon - Zhao, 2006, after 10.b4!? Nxf3+ 11.Nxf3 Qxb4 12.Ng5 Qa4 13.Qh5? Nh6 14.Nxh7 Rxh7!? 15.Bxh7 Qg4! when Black had very good compensation for the exchange and later won. But McDonald's suggestion 13.Bc2!? improves. He gives some weird computer lines, the main is 13...Qc6!? 14. Nxh7 O-O-O 15. Bg5 unclear.

In the latest game with this line, Kislinsky - Volovikov, Ukraine 2010, Black got into serious difficulties. He should have lost after 12.Rb1 Qa5 13.Rxb7 Bb6!? 14.Bd2 Qxa2 15.Ng5 Nh6 16.Qe2 Rd8 17.h3 (at least +=?) 17...Qa4?! 18.Rc1 Qh4? 19.Nf3 Qe7 20.Bg5 Qa3 21.Rxd7 (+-).
« Last Edit: 07/18/11 at 13:05:59 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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