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Normal Topic 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black (Read 5037 times)
iggystiv
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #7 - 06/10/10 at 15:59:47
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I was always interested in this position:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 7.Nf3 d4 8.0-0

I think it's your line 'c' above.  Anybody know the status of this line?

Here's a game.

[Event "Corus"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee NED"]
[Date "2008.01.15"]
[EventDate "2008.01.12"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Boris Gelfand"]
[Black "Judit Polgar"]
[ECO "E00"]
[WhiteElo "2737"]
[BlackElo "2707"]
[PlyCount "80"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Nf3 cxd4 5. Nxd4 d5 6. Bg2 e5 7. Nf3 d4 8. O-O Nc6 9. e3 d3 10. Nc3 Bb4 11. Bd2 O-O 12. a3 Bxc3 13. Bxc3 Ne4 14. Bxe5 Bg4 15. Bd4 Ng5 16. Bc3 Rc8 17. b4 Re8 18. h4 Ne4 19. Bb2 Qd7 20. Qc1 d2 21. Qc2 Bf5 22. Qb3 Be6 23. Qc2 Bf5 24. Qa4 Qd3 25. b5 Nd8 26. Qxa7 Ne6 27. g4 Bxg4 28. Ne5 Qc2 29. Nxg4 Qxb2 30. Bxe4 Rxc4 31. Bf3 Rc1 32. Raxc1 dxc1=Q 33. Rxc1 Qxc1+ 34. Kg2 h5 35. Nh2 Nc5 36. Bxb7 Qc2 37. Bd5 Qg6+ 38. Kh1 Nd3 39. Nf3 Nxf2+ 40. Kh2 Ng4+ 0-1
  
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MartinC
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #6 - 05/25/10 at 13:56:55
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One thing that is worth noting is that the transposition to a 4 Nf3 Nimzo after 5 Nc3 Bb4 6 g3, or 5 g3 Bb4+ 6 Nc3  that Cox doesn't cover in detail (fairly reasonably) as its not quite the same opening anymore, is a pretty major main line.

As with most such main lines its far from unplayable but also  far from trivial to equalise in. Personally I don't hugely like the feel of the early Ne4 bits there (bishops!)  and find the ultimate main line rather joyless. So I'd be trying to avoid it if sensible.

But thats taste as much as anything - you might like it. Important thing is to check it carefully Smiley
  
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Markovich
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #5 - 05/25/10 at 12:49:27
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Well I would think that 5.a3 is very well met by 5...d5.
  

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HoemberChess
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #4 - 05/25/10 at 12:01:55
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Thank you for the suggestions.
I have Beating Unusual Chess Openings (BUCO) and will get MCO #3.
Since I have an early ..e6 in, I can't quite follow BUCO, of course, but it seems like a good coverage of main lines after "1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Qb6 5.Nb3 e6 6.Nc3 Nf6", which some of my move-orders can transpose to.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

One more question in connection with move-orders, without opening a new thread.
(I am new to most of my defences, I have changed repertoires a lot, and I am fond of positional subtleties.
For a Black repertoire I intentionally choose similar systems, even with possible transpositions. (Among others, Sicilian Taimanov, Symmetrical English with an early ..e6, and Nimzo-Indian with 4.g3 c5 5.Nf3 are all have similarities, thus included.))

Let's consider this position, which can arise after one of my move-orders and transpose to quite a few.
1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6
(This time, let's develop the K-knight first.)
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Let's take the following three White continuations and find good Black answers.
a) 5.a3 
(I have faced this move in my limited practice with these "..e6 ..c5 ..cxd4 systems." The position can also arise after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.a3? c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4)

b) 5.Nc3
(5..Bb4 is covered in Dealing with d4-deviations by COX, while 5..Nc6 6.e4? Bb4 is a mistreated Sicilian Taimanov, with 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bb4)

c) 5.g3 
(when 5..Bb4+ is also covered in Dealing with d4-deviations, while there are a few other good moves for Black.)


So, I am looking for my 5th repertoire moves (one for each) in reply to these three White moves, _seeking for_
1 [strongest criteria]) interesting game positions, where a White player, who is not booked-up as much as I'd like to be at the time of our game, can go astray the most easily
2 [medium strong]) 5th moves that may transpose to one another in the course of the game
3 [less strong]) possible transpositions to other parts of my repertoire (Nimzo, Taimanov, as mentioned above)


You may have a similarly constructed repertoire...and I'd love to read what you have cooked in your "kitchen."

I suppose this is not an easy question to answer--there are a lot of transpositions--, but I'm not going to argue...I will just read in silence.
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Markovich
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #3 - 05/24/10 at 15:21:34
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Yes, Watson's book is very good.  Also Palliser's book, something like Beating Unusual Chess Openings, is good on the Symmetrical English.  His line is 4...Qb6 instead of the early 2...e6, but there is enough overlap to justify taking a look at his work.
  

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Troilus
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #2 - 05/24/10 at 05:28:55
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Watson's Mastering the Chess Openings Volume 3 (on the English Opening) covers this order, which tends to transpose to a main line (although 5 Nb5!? and 5 Nc3 Bb4!? attempt to deviate). The move 4...Qb6 is an interesting alternative which gets a lot of analysis in the book.
  
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Re: 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
Reply #1 - 05/23/10 at 17:00:13
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ECO and Carsten Hansen's book on the Symmetrical English are the first things I would think of, though neither is exactly recent.
  
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HoemberChess
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1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black
05/23/10 at 16:38:24
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I'd like to construct a Black repertoire after these four pairs of initial moves:
1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 (D)
(I'm aware I need be prepared for both the French and an open Sicilian, but the question is not about that.)

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My question is, what opening book(s) should I refer to?
(on the Symmetrical English after 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e6, for Black)

I may have asked this very question about 1.5 year ago in some topic, but I am not sure. (I had done a search in Flank Openings prior to opening this thread.)
« Last Edit: 05/23/10 at 19:58:20 by HoemberChess »  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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