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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov (Read 50087 times)
zen_learner
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #40 - 01/01/12 at 14:34:49
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Eclectico wrote on 07/24/10 at 18:54:59:
I must say i'm not terribly impressed with this DVD.  85% of the presentation is on the position after these moves:

1. e4 e5   2. Nf3 Nc6   3. Bb5 a6   4. Ba4 Nf6   5. O-O b5   6. Bb3 Bc5  7.a4 Rb8.   

This is the move that differentiates what Shirov refers to as the Tkachiev systerm.  This seems odd given he makes many references to this as "my lopez".  Unfortunately, there is very little disussion of black or white deviations.  In a roundabout way, it becomes clear that his intention is rarely to play Bb7.  Presumably if white doesn't play an early a4, he would aim for a quick Bg4, giving him more direct attacking chances against white's center than the solid Bb7 lines.

The video was insightfull at first, as he shared many thoughts about GM prep, especially the impact of modern computers.  However, he rambled a lot and seemingly did little preparation for the lecture.  Frankly, i feel he glossed over black's best moves (although he would vaguely mention them) and spent too much time on the difficult positions black ended up in. 

I don't need an opening video to "sell" me the variation with brilliant wins from the black side, but this video lacked any sort of enthusaism or "hope" from a presenter who has made this his primary defense for over a decade!   I got the impression he was trying to avoid giving away too many secrets.  I often sat twiddling my thumbs while our hero mumbled "uhh",  "ermm", and "i forget" as he tried to solve tactical problems in non-critical positions without the use of a computer. 

This is basically no more than an interesting games collection - too incomplete to form the basis of a repertoire, and too narrow in focus for a state of the art theory survey.  Sadly, none of these games impressed me with black's supposed "counterplay".  There is very little strategical explanation which indicates any logical motivation behind his choice of lines.   Most of the video is spent demonstrating that black can usually draw after dropping his b5 pawn, and that the Nxe5 fork trick doesnt necessarilly win for white.  I'm left wondering why bother playing the Rb8 system at all. 

FYI, the Chesslecture.com 3 part lecture series on this exact same opening is certainly a more suitable introduction for the 1600-2000 crowd.  Humorously, the most usefull thing i gained from Shirov's video was a hint that he could possibly play 7... Bb7 in the futre.


Thanks. It is the kind of helpful posts that dare to mention that an incredibly strong player like Shirov can produce such 'lemons'. I had the same impression with his 6.Bg5 Najdorf (Absolutely useless) and the Caro Kann 3.e5 which was somewhat better.

In fact most honest seems Kasparov in his Najdorf's DVD: Get Fritz and produce a novelty. I did, and it was useful vs Renier Vazquez (GM 2570) and Soltanici (IM 2400).

Even some good authors like Bologan (I love his French DVD) can get worse DVD's depending on what they are covering: The Philidor one was kind of boring, as was the Rossolimo one. The Sicilian ones... too vast a subject. Certain lines he recommends (like one by Lanka vs Scheveningen with 6.g4 a6) are completely out of date...

Shirov must be the most unprepared author I have seen... What is the point of analyzing a position while presenting???

One author that seems a pretty safe bet is Kasimdhanov (The Path to tactical strength fabulous) even though I prefer Bologan's 1 DVD to his 3 covering the French...
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #39 - 12/16/11 at 15:30:33
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I got CBM 145 a few days ago and i saw a game annotated by Marin and i think he mentions the game i am referring to! When i can i'll post more analysis and info on that and i will have a better personal view. Sorry i cannot do that now.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #38 - 12/16/11 at 13:16:58
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/03/11 at 17:38:35:
If i remember correctly Svidler used the same line deviating somewhere to beat easily Caruana in the Italian Championship this year. This is a promising road for White as it seems if we believe the engines' evaluations. Definately a more practical way than entering the complicated main lines.


Probably not, because 1. Caruana did not play any game in this line in the Italian (Team) Championship, and 2. Svidler did not participate at all.
And no, I do not believe in the engines' evaluations on positions with material imbalance for positional compensation. Quite the opposite.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #37 - 12/03/11 at 17:38:35
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If i remember correctly Svidler used the same line deviating somewhere to beat easily Caruana in the Italian Championship this year. This is a promising road for White as it seems if we believe the engines' evaluations. Definately a more practical way than entering the complicated main lines.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #36 - 11/30/11 at 14:18:51
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After looking at the position in more depth, it does seem that Black has decent counterplay after Anand's 17...Ne7.
Salgado Lopez tried a new pawn sacrifice against Kazimdzanov: 7.a4 Rb8 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.d4 Bxd4 10.Qxd4 d6 11.f4 Nc6 12.Qc3 Ne7 13.f5!? (instead of the regular 13.Qd3) 0-0 14.Qe1 Bb7 15.Qh4 Nxe4 16.Nc3 Nxc3 17.bc3 Bd5 18.f6 with interesting compensation, although it's possible that after the move played (18...Ng6) the Queen shouldn't go at h5.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #35 - 11/18/11 at 20:54:04
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I think Black has comp after 17...Ne7 in Svidler-Anand.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #34 - 11/17/11 at 21:40:03
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Shirov claimed that after 16...Nf4 17.Be3 Black has nothing else but a pawn less. Did he change his mind?
I only know the "new" move 17...Ne7, which was played in a blitz game between Svidler and Anand, and which does not inspire much confidence. Do I miss something?
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #33 - 11/17/11 at 17:15:10
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I think you mean 23.Na7, and it's not clear that this is really problematic for Black as 23...h6 24.Bxh6 d5 25.Nc6 Qd6 26.Qxd5 Qxd5 27.exd5 Ra8 "and Black may have compensation for the piece" (per Van Delf and Ris in ChessVibes Openings #108); meanwhile, 16...Nf4 avoids the line entirely.

  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #32 - 11/17/11 at 16:35:38
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I know this is an old thread... but since the main line of Shirov's sacrificial idea (7...Rb8) is at best problematic for Black, due to the stunning 21.Na7! of the game Smeets-Shirov, Wijk 2011, Black has either to switch to the positionally unwise 7...Bb7, or use the Moeller move order. IMO the main line after 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 d5 is not bad for Black, either with the 12...Nxf2 exchange sacrifice, or with Ivanchuk's brave king march (12...Rb8). Black looks just marginally worse, in both variations.
In the Moeller move order 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bc2 (7.Bb3 d6 7.a4 Bb7 is surely enough much better for Black than the positions white has not commited himself to c2-c3) d5 8.a4!? (ala-Anand) is IMO not particularly threatening.
Eagerly looking for comments!
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #31 - 12/22/10 at 10:18:54
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The 5 .. Bc5 6 c3 b5 vs 5 .. b5 6 Bb3 Bc5 thing does seem to be a genuine trade off rather than a straight loss.

Its 6 Bc2 d5 (d6 surely has to be a slightly worse version of the main line?) vs 5 .. b5 6 Bb3 Bc5 7 a4 which the old Everyman book seems to take relatively seriously.

Perhaps theory has clarified whether this is worth it or not by now Smiley Could do with a good book on all these lines actually, as there's so much new theory around.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #30 - 12/22/10 at 02:18:23
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ArKheiN wrote on 12/21/10 at 20:34:31:
Oh and in the whole Ruy Lopez vs Slow Italian theme, I never understood which color the Black's pawns a6-b5 vs a6-b7 expansion was favouring.


My first guess would be White because of the extra option a2-a4 and an initiative on the Queen's Wing. Very likely it will be more complicated.
  

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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #29 - 12/21/10 at 22:56:14
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In my new database including corr. Games (which was not included in my ChessBase 2010) I get:
7.Bb3 with 602 games with a score of 56,8%
7.Bc2 with 572 ganes with a score of 60,2%
7.d4 with 34 games with a score of 55%

The score is rather the same

I cannot understand the big difference in the number of games compared to your search as long as we are searching the same position:  1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Bc5 6.c3

I can understand Black if he thinks 7.Bc2 is inferior to 7.Bb3. In that case he gives White the option of doing a worse move. Otherwise I echo your question.

  

What kind of proof is that?
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #28 - 12/21/10 at 20:34:31
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Göran wrote on 06/07/10 at 16:40:14:
In my Mega2010 there are about 1000 games with 6.c3 and about 840 games with other than 6...c3. and after 6.c3 7.b5 the statistics in Mega shows:

Move      Games   Score      
7.Bb3      399         56.5%
7.Bc2      307         60.1%

Perhaps this figures don’t prove very much but I fail to see them supporting  that  “almost allgames transposes” (only 399 of roughly 1800 games) neither that “7.Bc2 should be inferior to 7.Bc3”.


Strange, I have done a research on chesslive where after 6..b5, statistics give 2628 games with Bb3 and 489 after Bc2. I guess that 2628 are because of the transposition, that would mean Bb3 is more important. One thing I don't understand is why would Black play first Bc5 and then b5 because it offers another reasonable choice for White (Bc2) instead of the immediate b5 followed by Bc5 (only Bb3 is possible). Could someone respond to me?

Oh and in the whole Ruy Lopez vs Slow Italian theme, I never understood which color the Black's pawns a6-b5 vs a6-b7 expansion was favouring.
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #27 - 10/30/10 at 12:49:28
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Just a small question. I remember reading Jansa's Dynamic Chess Strategy book some years ago where he gave a nice strategic variation for White against this Black's system. Could anyone tell what is it and if Shirov covers a Black's antidote? If i remember correctly Jansa didn't like taking the pawn and he prefered a Bg5 approach instead
  
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Re: Guide to the Tkachiev Ruy Lopez - Shirov
Reply #26 - 10/27/10 at 06:55:49
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Has anyone purchased this DVD?  A friend of mine did.  If you did, too, then perhaps a request for a 110% refund is in order.

Possibly I am being too harsh, as the entire DVD has not yet been viewed, and I base my statement solely upon glaring tactical errors found in Shirov's analysis of the first game on the DVD:

[Event "World Cup"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2009.12.01"]
[Round "4.2"]
[White "Svidler, P."]
[Black "Shirov, A."]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C78"]
[WhiteElo "2754"]
[BlackElo "2719"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2009.11.21"]
[EventType "k.o."]
[EventRounds "7"]
[EventCountry "RUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2009.12.06"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3 Bc5 7. a4 Rb8 8. axb5 axb5 9. Nxe5 Nxe5 10. d4 Bxd4 11. Qxd4 d6 12. f4 Nc6 (12... c5 13. Qd2 Neg4 14. h3 c4 15. Ba2 Qb6+ 16. Kh1 Nxe4 17. Qe1 (17. Qe2 O-O) 17... Ngf2+ 18. Kh2) 13. Qc3 Ne7 14. Qd3 O-O 15. Nc3 b4 16. Ne2 d5
17. exd5 Bf5 18. Qd1 Nexd5 19. Ng3 Bc8 20. Qd4 Bb7 21. Bd2 Re8 22. Rae1 Rxe1 23. Rxe1 Qf8 24. Ne4 Nxe4
25. Qxe4 h6 (25... Qc5+ 26. Kh1 (26. Be3 Nxe3 27. Qxe3 Qc6 28. Re2 h6 29. Qe7 Qb6+ 30. Kh1 Rf8) 26... h6) 26. h3 Qc5+ 27. Kh2 Bc6 28. Qc4 Qxc4 29. Bxc4 Nf6 30. Re7 Nd5 31. Bxd5 Bxd5 32. Rxc7 Re8 33. Rd7 Be4 34. Bxb4 Bxc2 35. Re7 Rxe7 36. Bxe7 Bb3 37. g4 f5 38. gxf5 Kf7 39. Bd8 Bc2 40. b4 Bxf5 41. b5 Ke6 42. b6 Be4 1/2-1/2

I have edited this game so as to avoid copyright infringement.  Cut and paste this game into your favorite database/chess playing program, and start the weakest chess engine you own.  Then play through the analysis in the notes to moves 12 and 25. 

This is inexcusable.  A player of Shirov's caliber should not be turning out a product such as this.  A modicum of preparation is all that is required to guard against the occurrence of such errors.  To my mind, when considering the sheer(ov) amount of DVD's he has been producing, one has to wonder if he is merely cashing-in while the getting is good.

From what I've read here and there on this forum, other Chessbase DVD's suffer from similar flaws.  I can't speak to that allegation, as I don't own any of them...and probably won't anytime soon.  However, if the above is any indication of the (lack of) quality of these DVD's in general, then perhaps such criticisms are more than justified.

  

I don't think I really know any more than other people don't really know.
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