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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What do you think of the Tartakower? (Read 19083 times)
kylemeister
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #35 - 09/13/10 at 06:15:36
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Yes.
  
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cma6
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #34 - 09/12/10 at 23:52:33
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Kyle: Are you referring to Sokolov's "Winning Chess Middlegames"
  
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MNb
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #33 - 07/10/10 at 19:36:49
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1.d4 d5 2.c4, e6 3.Nc3 Nf6. 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0. 7.e3 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 Re8 13.Qb3 a5 14.bxa5 Rxa5 15.a4 Nd7 16.Rfe1

LeeRoth wrote on 07/10/10 at 16:17:46:
As for your line with 16..Ba6, after 17.Bxa6 Rxa6, as far as I know, it is thought that the plan of doubling on the c-file is slightly better for White, so play may go instead 18.Re2 (and not 18.e4) 18..Re6 19.Rc2 Be7 20. Rc1.


The logical plan for Black seems to me 18...Nf8 19.Rc2 Ne6 20.Rac1 Qa8 and I don't see why Black should be worse.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #32 - 07/10/10 at 17:04:36
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/10/10 at 16:54:14:
They usually just transpose (Nd7-f8-e6 or Na6-c7-e6).


Oh, right.  Duh.  Embarrassed   Thanks for pointing that out.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #31 - 07/10/10 at 16:54:14
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They usually just transpose (Nd7-f8-e6 or Na6-c7-e6).
  

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #30 - 07/10/10 at 16:25:28
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/09/10 at 11:49:48:
After 24. Qb5 in the long line you cite I'm not sure I'd be that comfortable with black. Sure, black has practical compensation and may be easy to play OTB, but it's not the sort I'd fancy against good technique.

Isn't 11. b4 c5 equal as well? Last I checked it was...not sure that black needs to "find" anything unless it's simply for the sake of aiming for the full point.


This may have been discussed in a prior thread, but in the "long line" instead of 13..Na6, Black also, of course, has 13..Nd7.

  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #29 - 07/10/10 at 16:17:46
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/09/10 at 09:54:36:
As i see it now, i'm wondering what is the problem for Black after 12.b4 c6 13.O-O Re8 (no Ne5 for White!) 14.Qb3 a5! 15.bxa5! (now 15.b5? c5! is strong for Black) 15...Rxa5 16.a4 Nd7 (Sokolov doesn't say much for this position in his book) 17.Rfe1 (this is NCO's proposal, Atalik's games and analysis in Megabase shows that no other mov e is critical) 17...Ba6! 18.Bxa6 Rxa6 and now 19.e4 is supposed to be better for white but Dautov gives 19...dxe4 20.Nxe4 Re6 21.Ra2 (this is given as '!' in many sources) and now 21...Ra8 is Dautov's improvement with the sign "=" given by him. This makes me wonder if ...Re8 and then ...a5 is more accurate after all so as to sidestep this Ne5 issue


Ametanoitos, a small favor if you please.  It would help if you could give the opening moves of the lines you want to discuss, as I think your move order may be a little off (in your earlier post you had 11..c6 already in).  But whatever the move order, yes, I agree with you that ..Re8 is the way to go so as to avoid White's Ne5 lines.  This, btw, is what Kasparov recommends in his Modern Chess series.  After 11. b4 c6 12.0-0, he even calls 12..a5 "slightly premature" presumably due to the 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5 line. 

After 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 Re8 13.Qb3 a5 14.bxa5 Rxa5 15.a4 Nd7 16.Rfe1 Kasparov gives 16..g6 as best and then 17.e4 c5 with equality, following the rapid game Karpov-Short, Amber 1993. 

Kasaprov doesn't examine 17.Rab1, which led to a good position for White in Epishin-Lutz, Dortmund 1994, but Black's play can be improved in that game, and I don't think Black is worse.

As for your line with 16..Ba6, after 17.Bxa6 Rxa6, as far as I know, it is thought that the plan of doubling on the c-file is slightly better for White, so play may go instead 18.Re2 (and not 18.e4) 18..Re6 19.Rc2 Be7 20. Rc1.

  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #28 - 07/10/10 at 12:05:06
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Yes, you have a point. Black is a tempo down  Embarrassed
  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #27 - 07/10/10 at 11:44:33
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Doesn't Black lose a tempo compared to some lines, as White plays Bg5xf6 iso Bg5-h4xh6 ? It seems to me that in this line Black is even worse off than after 5...0-0 6.e3 b6 etcetera, when White at least has to play Bd3 and Qc2 (or b1) to force the loss of tempo ...h6 (and Black sometimes can play ...g6 instead).
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #26 - 07/10/10 at 10:44:06
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After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6!? 6.Bxf6 Bxf6 7.e3 isthere something wrong with 7...b6 trying to get a Tartakower main line and avoid some theory after 7...O-O 8.Rc1 or 8.Qc2 etc?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #25 - 07/09/10 at 18:26:05
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If White doesn't play b4 then ...Qe7 and Rd8 seems to be the preference of many sources. I just play ...Re8 and the Nto e6 manouvre just because i want less patterns to work with (simplicity). Both lines (Re8 and Qe7+Rd8) seem to equalise. What is the most ambitious? Maybe it is the Qe7 plan.

After b4 the plan with ...c5 equalises as Gelfand recently showed but it is not ambitious. I have come to the conclusion that in the ...c6 lines Black should not allow Ne5 and play first Re8 and then ...a5.
  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #24 - 07/09/10 at 16:41:33
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/09/10 at 09:54:36:
As i see it now, i'm wondering what is the problem for Black after 12.b4 c6 13.O-O Re8 (no Ne5 for White!) 14.Qb3 a5! 15.bxa5! (now 15.b5? c5! is strong for Black) 15...Rxa5 16.a4 Nd7 (Sokolov doesn't say much for this position in his book) 17.Rfe1 (this is NCO's proposal, Atalik's games and analysis in Megabase shows that no other mov e is critical) 17...Ba6! 18.Bxa6 Rxa6 and now 19.e4 is supposed to be better for white but Dautov gives 19...dxe4 20.Nxe4 Re6 21.Ra2 (this is given as '!' in many sources) and now 21...Ra8 is Dautov's improvement with the sign "=" given by him. This makes me wonder if ...Re8 and then ...a5 is more accurate after all so as to sidestep this Ne5 issue


Brenninkmeijer,J (2490) - Hedke,F (2350) [D58]
Groningen op Groningen (4), 1994
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0–0 7.e3 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0–0 Re8 13.Qb3 a5 14.bxa5 Rxa5 15.a4 Ba6 16.Bxa6 Rxa6 17.Rfe1 Nd7 18.e4 dxe4 19.Nxe4 Ra8 20.Rad1 Qc7 21.Qc4 Rac8 22.Rc1 Be7 23.g3 Qb7 24.Rb1 Bf8 25.Re3 Re6 26.Qb3 c5 27.d5 Ree8 28.Qc4 f5 29.Nc3 Rxe3 30.fxe3 Re8 31.Qf4 Nf6 32.Nh4 Qa6 33.Rd1 Qa5 34.Nb5 Re4 35.Qf3 Rxa4 36.Nc7 Ra1 37.Nxf5 Qa4 38.Rxa1 Qxa1+ 39.Kg2 Qb2+ 40.Kh3 g6 41.Nd4 Bg7 42.Nc6 g5 43.g4 h5 44.Qf5 hxg4+ 45.Kg3 Qe2 ½–½

Inspired by the two threads on the Tartakower I have looked a bit at this variation (11.b4 and 12.0-0). It seems to me that this setup (Re8 and a5) is Black's most ambitious try. An idea might be 16...Qa8, which also has been tried.

Regarding 11.0-0 c6 12.Qb3 I wonder if immediately Re8 is best. In my unreliable notes I have 12...Na6/13...Nc7 and the rook may go to d8 iso e8. I haven't everything figured out, but noticed that both Nb8-a6-c7-e6 and Nb8-d7-f8-e6 may lead to the same positions. The latter may have the advantage of having the option of playing an earlier ...c5.
Can anybody tell if I have missed something?
  

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #23 - 07/09/10 at 12:55:30
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After looking closer I don't know why 22. Bc4 is even best besides the engine initially liking it, because it's extremely counterintuitive (why bother with g3/Bf1 just to play Bc4 which doesn't even threaten something?). 22. axb6 seems like the better way to go, answering anything besides 22...Qxb6 with Bg2.

After 22. axb6 black should eventually reach full equality, but if winning chances were the original goal, then they're non-existent. All this means is black has a second route to securing the draw besides 11...c5.
  

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #22 - 07/09/10 at 12:19:10
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Black can improve with 23....Qe7 first and then play ...Bxb6 or ...axb6 with full comp for the pawn. I don't like the look of White's position and not a single titled player that joined the analysis believed that Black is worse here.

Yes, i agree with the solutions you provide (the ...c5 move in the two variations you give). The only problem is that Black doesn't play for the win here. Not that the chances of winning are not existant but the lines with ...c6 maintain a certain amount of potential in Black's position.

As i see now, Rizzitano gives 12...Re8 (instead of 12...a5) as equal.
  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #21 - 07/09/10 at 11:49:48
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After 24. Qb5 in the long line you cite I'm not sure I'd be that comfortable with black. Sure, black has practical compensation and may be easy to play OTB, but it's not the sort I'd fancy against good technique.

Isn't 11. b4 c5 equal as well? Last I checked it was...not sure that black needs to "find" anything unless it's simply for the sake of aiming for the full point.
  

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