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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What do you think of the Tartakower? (Read 26043 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #20 - 07/09/10 at 09:54:36
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As i see it now, i'm wondering what is the problem for Black after 12.b4 c6 13.O-O Re8 (no Ne5 for White!) 14.Qb3 a5! 15.bxa5! (now 15.b5? c5! is strong for Black) 15...Rxa5 16.a4 Nd7 (Sokolov doesn't say much for this position in his book) 17.Rfe1 (this is NCO's proposal, Atalik's games and analysis in Megabase shows that no other mov e is critical) 17...Ba6! 18.Bxa6 Rxa6 and now 19.e4 is supposed to be better for white but Dautov gives 19...dxe4 20.Nxe4 Re6 21.Ra2 (this is given as '!' in many sources) and now 21...Ra8 is Dautov's improvement with the sign "=" given by him. This makes me wonder if ...Re8 and then ...a5 is more accurate after all so as to sidestep this Ne5 issue
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #19 - 07/09/10 at 08:53:54
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Some more updates in some critical lines we analysed at the Greek league:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Be7 5. Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 O-O 7. e3 b6 8. Be2 Bb7 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. cxd5 exd5 11. O-O

(Critical is 11. b4 c6 12. O-O a5 13. b5 c5 14. Ne5
Qc7

(We didn't like 14... Bxe5 15. dxe5 d4 16. exd4 cxd4 17. Na4 Qg5 18. Bg4 Qxe5 19. Nxb6 Ra7 when Rizzitano and Sokolov claim equality for Black but White can pose some problems after 20. Qb3 or 20.Rc1)

15. Ng4 (15. f4 cxd4) 15... Nd7 16. Bf3 Rad8 17. Nxd5 Bxd5 18. Bxd5 cxd4 19. Rc1 (19. exd4 Qf4 20. Rc1 Qxd4 is equal according to Sokolov and he may be right)
19... Qd6 20. e4 Nc5 21. Rc4 d3 22. f4 Rfe8 is equal according to Sokolov but better for White according to Rizzitano. Some new ideas are needed here it seems)

11... c6 12. Qb3 Re8

(12... Be7 13. Rad1 Nd7 14. Rfe1 Nf6 15. Ne5 Bd6 16.f4 Qe7 17. Bf3 is better for White even though some players liked the solidity Black's position has)

13. Rfe1 Na6 14. Rad1 Nc7 15. Bf1 Ne6 16. g3 c5 17. dxc5 d4! TN
(17... Nxc5 was discussed here in chesspub)
18. Nxd4
(18. c6 Bxc6 19. Be2 Rc8 20. Nxd4 Bxd4 21. exd4 Nxd4bLack wins)
18... Nxd4 19. exd4 Rxe1 20. Rxe1 Bxd4 21. Ne4
(21. Re2 Bxc5 22. Bg2 Ba6 23.Rc2 Qd3 24. Re2 Bc4 25. Qa4 Rd8[/color] and Black is crushing White)
([color=#0000ff]21. cxb6 Bxf2+ 22. Kxf2 Qf6
+ is winning as well)
21... Qc7 22.Bc4 Rd8 23. cxb6
(23. Bxf7+ Qxf7 24. Qxf7+ Kxf7 25. Nd6+ Rxd6 26. cxd6 Bc6 27.Re7+ Kf6 28. Rxa7 Bxb2 29. Rc7 Bb5 is a difficult ending for White)
23... Bxb6 and we all preferred Black here who is pawn down! White has difficulties to find a reasonable plan for example if he tries to put the B on g2: 24. Bf1 Qe5 25. Bg2
(25. Qb5 Rd5 26. Qe2 Qe6 27. Bg2 Re5)
25... Rd2 and Black is winning!

So, for the Tartakower fans it seems that the line with b4 and Ne5 is the only critical line that needs some care. Maybe we can combine our powers and find the solution here.

  
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BPaulsen
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #18 - 07/08/10 at 10:23:32
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Ametanoitos wrote on 07/08/10 at 09:22:27:
An update: Yesterday i was showing an idea of mine in a couple of IM's and FM's in the Greek League Team Championships and this is it:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 (btw 3...a6!? is interesting here) 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bf4 O-O 6.a3!? Nbd7! 7.Nb5 Ne8 8.e3 and now the idea comes: 8...a6! 9.Nc3 dxc4! 10.Bxc4 b5 11.Bd3 c5! (else b4 comes) and Black has equalized already!


That's certainly simple enough, and a much clearer equality than the Tartakower-esque lines. I don't see how white can favorably side-step, or maintain the initiative.

It is funny it's never been noticed before since it is a very typical plan.

If 6. a3 is buried, and Nbd7 works against that, then black is equal after 5. Bf4 everywhere, even if the 6. e3 Nbd7 7. a3 lines aren't very much fun.

Aside from that, 3...a6 isn't really interesting. It usually transposes to a += line from the Nf3 QGD Exchange. It could be a good surprise weapon though.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #17 - 07/08/10 at 09:22:27
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An update: Yesterday i was showing an idea of mine in a couple of IM's and FM's in the Greek League Team Championships and this is it:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 (btw 3...a6!? is interesting here) 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bf4 O-O 6.a3!? Nbd7! 7.Nb5 Ne8 8.e3 and now the idea comes: 8...a6! 9.Nc3 dxc4! 10.Bxc4 b5 11.Bd3 c5! (else b4 comes) and Black has equalized already!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #16 - 07/07/10 at 06:34:00
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Atalik's analysis is contained within Stohl's annotations to the game Ametanoitos mentioned (Kramnik-Carlsen, 2009).
  

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #15 - 07/07/10 at 02:57:31
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I took a look at Stohl's analysis. He gives 1 d4 d5; 2 c4, e6; 3 Nc3, Nf6; 4 Nf3, Be7; 5 Bg5, h6; 6 Bh4, 0-0; 7 e3, b6; 8 Be2, Bb7; 9 Bxf6, Bxf6; 10 cxd, exd; 11 b4, c5; 12 bxc, bxc; 13 Rb1, Bc6; 14 0-0, Nd7; 15 Bb5, Qc7; 16 Qd3, Rfc8; 17 Rfd1, Rab8; 18 a4, cxd; 19 exd, Bxb5 = (Gelfand).
   Do you have better lines for W after 10 Rd1. Would appreciate the link to Atalik analysis.
                 Thanks, CMA
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #14 - 06/11/10 at 20:08:03
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i have 10.Rd1 in my repertoire and i think that White has good chances of a slight advantage. Atallik's analysis is the most respected antidote here. See for example GM Stohl's comments in Kramnik-Carlsen 2009 in megabase.

It would be great to see what Mr Cox will propose in his coming book in the QGD.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #13 - 06/11/10 at 17:34:06
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kylemeister wrote on 06/11/10 at 16:09:12:
Larry Kaufman, in a Yearbook article about nine months ago, thought that 10. Rd1 is quite pleasant for White.


I noticed that one as well, especially since in Dautov's old database from 2001 he was rather dismissive of it.

@Ametanoitos

Good find.

  

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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #12 - 06/11/10 at 16:57:50
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I like to see 10.Nd2 and 10.0-0-0 because -- whether you think its equal or slightly better for White -- it's at least a game.  But that 8.cxd5 line is a soul-sucking bit of dreariness (e.g., Leko-Kramnik from their match).  Black can hold the ending, but that's about it. 

Of course, if you're going to play the QGD as Black, you have to resign yourself to having such days.  It's hard to liven things up if White is intent on deadening the position.  Against lower-rated players, either you need to have faith in your ability to outplay them in an endgame or you need to have another opening up your sleeve.          
  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #11 - 06/11/10 at 16:09:12
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Larry Kaufman, in a Yearbook article about nine months ago, thought that 10. Rd1 is quite pleasant for White.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #10 - 06/11/10 at 14:20:24
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BPaulsen, the 10.Nd2 variation was burried by the Nielsen-Anand team with a convicing idea:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bf4 O-O 6. e3 c5 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8. a3 Nc6 9. Qc2 Qa5 10. Nd2 Bb4 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Bd3 Nh5!
13. Bg3
(13. Nb3 Bxc3+14. bxc3 Qd8)
(13. Bxh7+ Kh8 14. Bd3 Nxf4 15. exf4 Re8+)
13... h6
(13... d4 14. Nb3 Bxc3+ 15. bxc3 Qxc3+ 16. Qxc3 dxc3 17. Rc1 Nxg3 18. hxg3 h6 19. Rxc3 Be6 20. Nc5 Ne5 21. Nxe6 Nxd3+ 22. Rxd3 fxe6 23. Ke2 =) 14. O-O Bxc3 15. Nb3 Qb6 16. Qxc3 Nxg3 17. hxg3 Rd8 18. Nc5 d4 19. exd4 Nxd4 20. Rfe1 Be6 21. Nxe6 Nxe6 22. Rac1 Rd6 23. b4 Rad8 24. Be4 Ng5 25. Bb1 Rc6 26. Qb2 Rxc1 27.
Qxc1 g6 28. Qc3 Qd4 29. Qxd4{1/2,Gelfand,B (2727)-Nielsen,P (2646)/Turin
olm/2006/}

Also, i think that Black has to be slightly worse after the ...b6 aproach but this is a very slight edge (even thought Dautov doesn't think so) and this is a good trade-off between the theory you have to know and the soundness of the position.

  
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Keano
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #9 - 06/10/10 at 14:16:56
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BPaulsen wrote on 06/10/10 at 12:45:19:
If white's going to bother with the Classical QGD (d4/c4/Nf3/Nc3) he should put his emphasis on 5. Bf4. 5. Bg5 is pretty much finished due to both the Tartakower and Lasker, at least if white's trying to get an edge.


A pretty bold statement!
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #8 - 06/10/10 at 12:45:19
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Ametanoitos wrote on 06/10/10 at 10:56:23:
The Catalan and the Bf4 lines. In the first case i recommend studying the chapter "White's dissapearing advantage" in the Wojo's reperoire book and for the Bf4 lines i recommend the "Tartakower-like" ...b6 variations as these were given by Dautov as equal (and were recommended by Mc Donald in his starting out book also). The tryth is that in both cases White can claim a tiny something. If you want, you can study the main line Catalan (...dxc4 and Be7 etc)and the ...c5 main lines after Bf4 and you have an equal game there also, but with the great prise of having to remember tons of complicated theory. All in all this is what i think of the Tartakower: FANTASTIC CHOICE!


Most sources I have rate the old main line of the 5. Bf4 QGD with black playing 6...c5 as slightly better for white in the continuation with 10. Nd2 (instead of 10. 0-0-0 which is tremendously theoretical and equal).

5. Bf4 0-0 6. e3 Nbd7 has gained in popularity as a result of that, and black has been doing okay there (7. a3 leads to a += ending black can hold with accurate play). The Tartakower-esque approach is likely best after 6. a3 b6, but I've been unable to punch a hole in TN's analysis there (it's posted on chesspub), to date (white can reach TN's analysis via 6. e3 b6 7. a3 if he wants, anyway). I pretty much agree white should keep slightly better chances.

If white's going to bother with the Classical QGD (d4/c4/Nf3/Nc3) he should put his emphasis on 5. Bf4. 5. Bg5 is pretty much finished due to both the Tartakower and Lasker, at least if white's trying to get an edge. For any black QGD player the Tartakower's a great choice for dealing with 5. Bg5.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #7 - 06/10/10 at 10:56:23
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The Tartakower is simply an excellent choice! Together with the Lasker they can form a life-time bullet proof repertoire. The great thing about Tartakower is that studying it you meet chess in it's highest level. Starting with Capa-Alekhine and moving to Spassky-Kasparov/Karpon, Short, Anand and the modern GMs you raise your level of understanding and playing strengh just by studying their classic games. As for the theoritical status, in the "old main lines" it cannot be better! No advantage for White! Can Black play for the win? Absolutely yes! Even in the "boring" Lasker (and i don't have in mind the Topalov-Anand game only). What is the problem? The Catalan and the Bf4 lines. In the first case i recommend studying the chapter "White's dissapearing advantage" in the Wojo's reperoire book and for the Bf4 lines i recommend the "Tartakower-like" ...b6 variations as these were given by Dautov as equal (and were recommended by Mc Donald in his starting out book also). The tryth is that in both cases White can claim a tiny something. If you want, you can study the main line Catalan (...dxc4 and Be7 etc)and the ...c5 main lines after Bf4 and you have an equal game there also, but with the great prise of having to remember tons of complicated theory. All in all this is what i think of the Tartakower: FANTASTIC CHOICE!
  
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Re: What do you think of the Tartakower?
Reply #6 - 06/10/10 at 08:12:44
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Bit dull. Okay for vegetarians and old people.
  
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