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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV? (Read 41977 times)
Stigma
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #26 - 06/19/10 at 19:37:00
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trw wrote on 06/17/10 at 20:53:24:


I've very much wanted to switch to the Bd2 line. Having played it, do you feel like the middlegame was rich?

Yes I did. As I wrote in an earlier thread, in the main line White has a nice choice on move 8 between several very different lines, in particular the aggressive 8.f4 and the super-solid 8.h3. So it's also a line that can be played with different intentions.

Btw. there is some interesting analysis of the sideline 5.Bd2 Bg7 6.e4 Nb6 7.Be3 0-0 8.f4 Nc6 9.d5 Nb8 (instead of the sharper 9...Na5) in Naroditsky's "Mastering Positional Chess", focusing on the game Korchnoi-McShane, Igualda 2005. It seems he relied heavily on Krasenkow's Chessbase annotations to the same game, but in some lines he deviates from them.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #25 - 06/19/10 at 19:10:55
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Ametanoitos wrote on 06/19/10 at 18:08:03:


Eric, all the lines you are givinh here are a simple += for White. You cannot really trust Rybka in this ...dxc4 and ...Nc6 line because it is easily a large advantage for White if you folllow Rybka's first choices. This line is a techical one, and please don't misunderstand me but you need to have a good understanding of the typical structures to play this. What is your rating? This is very important for the line you want to chose against the Grunf.


My current (as of my last tournament) rating is 2176, but I've been above 2200 briefly before (USCF).  And I'm not just trusting Rybka; I analyzed most of these lines a few years ago when I bought Beating the King's Indian and Gruenfeld by Tim Taylor, who has some analysis from the move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. e3 Bg7 5. Qb3 dxc4 6. Bxc4 O-O 7. Nf3 if I remember correctly.  I didn't believe White has any edge here or after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. e3 Bg7 5. Qb3 e6 then, and I don't see anything that would convince me otherwise today.  Sure it's a game, but I think Black is fully equal.

8...Rb8 9.0-0 Be6 was my idea, but I needed a little help after Rybka pointed out 9.d5 Na5 10.Qa3 (an idea I hadn't considered).  Anyway Black probably has better options on move 8.  And I actually think the main lines with ...e7-e6 (instead of ...dxc4) are the better way for Black to play, my point was that I don't see a way to prove an edge for White against an inferior line!  That doesn't bode too well for White's setup.  I'm open minded though, and if you can provide some analysis that convinces me that White has chances of += I might play this line.  I just don't see it.

In general, I like playing sound, established openings with good pedigrees that are nonetheless not the main lines, if that makes sense.  I play the Saemisch against the KID instead of the Classical, the Catalan (and not the most fashionable lines) instead of the QGD, the Sicilian Kan  instead of the Najdorf, Dragon, Sveshnikov, etc.  I just can't seem to find anything I like against the Gruenfeld; perhap I'll resort to 3.f3 but for now I'm going to see if I come up with anything interesting in the 5.g3 line.




  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #24 - 06/19/10 at 18:14:56
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/19/10 at 17:20:21:

That leaves 5.g3 Bg7 6.Bg2 Nxc3 7.bc.  Does anyone have any insight into this line before I delve into it?  Any resources?  I'm planning on jumping in with Megabase 2010; I don't have any other sources of theory that cover it.  Thanks!


Well, it's an old book line which makes up much of the D71 section in ECO.  Janjgava had these comments in his Fianchetto KID/Grünfeld book:  it "does not appear very logical since a kingside fianchetto does not really fit in with an Exchange Grünfeld structure, but it can arise via other move-orders, and has some sense if White wishes to play e3 and Ne2 following the exchange on c3 (not that this plan is at all dangerous)."
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #23 - 06/19/10 at 18:08:03
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No, Black does not have a problem here after ...Nxc3

Quote:
Thanks Ametanoitos.  While I don't have the credentials of Yusupov, the line in the game sure looks extremely = to me.  Yusupov might have some nice analysis, I don't know, but I find it very hard to believe that Black doesn't have a full share of the chances.  It's still a game with plenty of scope for both sides to outplay their opponent, but objectively I can't imagine why Black is worse.

In the game, the plan with f2-f4 is nice, but I think Black could have done something about it if he knew it was coming.  What about 15...Ba6! to start?

But honestly, I'm not even sure White can prove an edge against the "inferior" 6...dxc4.  7.Bxc4 Nc6 and now what?  8.Ne5 Nxe5 9.de Nd7 10.e6 fe 11.Bxe6+ Kh8 12.Ne4 and now maybe 12...Ne5.  Does White really look better?  If instead 11.0-0 Nc5 12.Qc2 you will have your work cut out for you convincing me that White is better at all.

So I guess White should play 8.Be2 and claim that compared to the Russian system, Black doesn't have pressure on d4.  Still, I find it hard to believe White has an edge.  I'm not sure what Black's best move is here, but he could try 8...Qd6, 8...b6, maybe even 8...a6 or something else.  How about 8...Bb8 with the idea 9.0-0 Be6 10.Qd1 Bf5!?  Rybka helps with the line 8...Rb8 9.d5 Na5 10.Qa3 c5! when if 11.Qxc5 Bf5 and it looks like Black has very good comp to me.  I could look at all this more closely later, but again, hard to believe White has an objective advantage.


Eric, all the lines you are givinh here are a simple += for White. You cannot really trust Rybka in this ...dxc4 and ...Nc6 line because it is easily a large advantage for White if you folllow Rybka's first choices. This line is a techical one, and please don't misunderstand me but you need to have a good understanding of the typical structures to play this. What is your rating? This is very important for the line you want to chose against the Grunf.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #22 - 06/19/10 at 17:20:21
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After thinking about it more and looking over various positions, I'd really like to make 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd Nxd5 5.g3!? work.  I just received Avrukh's 1.d4 Volume Two a few days ago, and that should be all I need for 5...Bg7 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.Nf3.

That leaves 5.g3 Bg7 6.Bg2 Nxc3 7.bc.  Does anyone have any insight into this line before I delve into it?  Any resources?  I'm planning on jumping in with Megabase 2010; I don't have any other sources of theory that cover it.  Thanks!
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #21 - 06/18/10 at 02:25:45
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trw wrote on 06/17/10 at 17:15:52:
see I don't believe the Grunfeld should provide such easy = its just at my level when 6/7 pieces are gone by move 25... exploiting that slight endgame edge is something GMs can do not me. My center is felt more when I pieces with which to continue the pressure.

One nice thing about the lines that Sakaev provides is that even if endgames arise White's play is all about pressure, activity and making that centre felt.
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #20 - 06/17/10 at 21:05:40
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Well, of course books generally think that Black has a few ways to reach equality against 6. Qb3.  (If it appeared that White could forcibly reach "+=", then this would be the main line against the Gruenfeld.)  Similar to the situation with the Smyslov system against the KID, another of Yusupov's recommendations.
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #19 - 06/17/10 at 20:53:24
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Stigma wrote on 06/17/10 at 17:46:40:
Though the Grünfeld is a good defence, White has many interesting and playable lines against it. I actually have the opposite problem from you guys; there are so many lines I want to try but I know I should limit myself to one or two! 

Recently I've tried the 5.Bd2 Exchange with success; both that and the Russian system look like good bets if you want a complex middlegame, avoiding early simplifications. There is also the wrinkle with 4.Qb3 delaying or omitting Nf3 in the Russian. And both in the Bc4 Exchange and the Rb1 Exchange White's chances for advantage are linked to his space and attacking chances in the middlegame (or sometimes to a dangerous passed d-pawn). Or how about the delayed Nadanian 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Na4, which was covered by Rowson in an SOS? Just pick one and know it bettter than your opponents!



I've very much wanted to switch to the Bd2 line. Having played it, do you feel like the middlegame was rich?
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #18 - 06/17/10 at 20:27:51
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Thanks Ametanoitos.  While I don't have the credentials of Yusupov, the line in the game sure looks extremely = to me.  Yusupov might have some nice analysis, I don't know, but I find it very hard to believe that Black doesn't have a full share of the chances.  It's still a game with plenty of scope for both sides to outplay their opponent, but objectively I can't imagine why Black is worse.

In the game, the plan with f2-f4 is nice, but I think Black could have done something about it if he knew it was coming.  What about 15...Ba6! to start?

But honestly, I'm not even sure White can prove an edge against the "inferior" 6...dxc4.  7.Bxc4 Nc6 and now what?  8.Ne5 Nxe5 9.de Nd7 10.e6 fe 11.Bxe6+ Kh8 12.Ne4 and now maybe 12...Ne5.  Does White really look better?  If instead 11.0-0 Nc5 12.Qc2 you will have your work cut out for you convincing me that White is better at all.

So I guess White should play 8.Be2 and claim that compared to the Russian system, Black doesn't have pressure on d4.  Still, I find it hard to believe White has an edge.  I'm not sure what Black's best move is here, but he could try 8...Qd6, 8...b6, maybe even 8...a6 or something else.  How about 8...Bb8 with the idea 9.0-0 Be6 10.Qd1 Bf5!?  Rybka helps with the line 8...Rb8 9.d5 Na5 10.Qa3 c5! when if 11.Qxc5 Bf5 and it looks like Black has very good comp to me.  I could look at all this more closely later, but again, hard to believe White has an objective advantage.

Maybe I'll buy Sakaev, after giving 5.Bd2 a try...
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #17 - 06/17/10 at 18:36:25
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[Event "Politiken Cup 25th"]
[Site "Copenhagen"]
[Date "2003.07.20"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Jussupow, Artur"]
[Black "Carlsen, Magnus"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d5 5. e3 O-O 6. Qb3 e6 7. Bd2 b6 8. cxd5 exd5 9. Be2 Bb7 10. O-O Nbd7 11. Rfd1 c6 12. a4 a5 13. Rac1 Re8 14. Ne1!
after this Yusupov claims an advantage for White
14...Bf8 15.Nd3 Bd6 16. f4 Qe7 17. Ne5 Bb4 18. Bf3 Rac8 19. Be1 Qe6 20. Bh4 c5 21. h3 c4
22. Qc2 Be7 23. Rf1 Bb4 24. g4 Bxc3 25. bxc3 Ne4 26. f5 Qd6 27. Bxe4 dxe4 28.fxg6 fxg6 29. Nf7 Qe6 30. Nh6+ Kh8 31. Rf7 Rf8 32. Rcf1 Rxf7 33. Nxf7+ Kg8 34.Nd8 Qd5 35. Qf2 Bc6 36. Qf4 b5 37. axb5 Bxb5 38. Qh6 Rxd8 39. Bxd8 Qd6 40. Kg2
a4 41. Ba5 1-0

  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #16 - 06/17/10 at 17:46:40
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Though the Grünfeld is a good defence, White has many interesting and playable lines against it. I actually have the opposite problem from you guys; there are so many lines I want to try but I know I should limit myself to one or two! 

Recently I've tried the 5.Bd2 Exchange with success; both that and the Russian system look like good bets if you want a complex middlegame, avoiding early simplifications. There is also the wrinkle with 4.Qb3 delaying or omitting Nf3 in the Russian. And both in the Bc4 Exchange and the Rb1 Exchange White's chances for advantage are linked to his space and attacking chances in the middlegame (or sometimes to a dangerous passed d-pawn). Or how about the delayed Nadanian 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Na4, which was covered by Rowson in an SOS? Just pick one and know it bettter than your opponents!
  
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #15 - 06/17/10 at 17:40:35
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parisestmagique wrote on 06/17/10 at 07:20:33:
Sakaev wrote a book some years ago in English "how to get an edge against the Grunfeld" . He recommands the main line exchange variation with Bc4 and Ne2. Very deep analysis but i am not shure it gives White an advantage !


There's a newer version of the book called An Expert's Guide to the 7 Bc4 Gruenfeld.
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #14 - 06/17/10 at 17:24:52
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Ametanoitos, can you give a general outline of what lines Yusupov recommends?  As a Catalan player myself, I wouldn't mind having the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.e3 as Black from a structural point of view, but possibly that extra tempo gives White something to work with.  The only early e3 lines I'm familiar with are 4.e3 Bg7 5.Qb3 (which is nothing for White) and the Keres plan, with a later cxd5 and Bc4.  I also don't think that gives White anything in theory, but I might try it in practice because I'm very familiar with the plans in those types of positions.

Anyway how does Yusupov recommend White play?

trw: I haven't really looked at 5.Bd2 yet, but it has some appeal in that it 1) discourages ...Nxc3, and 2) leads to Russian system type positions without commiting the Queen.  Also, I noticed that Dreev has played it 23 times in my database.  He must think it has more promise than just an occasional surprise weapon.
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #13 - 06/17/10 at 17:17:26
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ErictheRed wrote on 06/17/10 at 16:26:48:

I'm now considering playing 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5.Bd2 or 5.g3...I just don't know how to get positions I like against the Grunfeld. 



Thats exactly my problem too. I have considered trying 5. Bd2 especially because of how unexplored it is and how many pieces it retains on the board.
  
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Re: Favorite Grunfeld lines from White POV?
Reply #12 - 06/17/10 at 17:15:52
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see I don't believe the Grunfeld should provide such easy = its just at my level when 6/7 pieces are gone by move 25... exploiting that slight endgame edge is something GMs can do not me. My center is felt more when I pieces with which to continue the pressure.
  
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