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Poll closed Question: Which opening do you recommend to someone switching to e4?
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Vienna    
  5 (9.8%)
King's Gambit    
  7 (13.7%)
Scotch    
  5 (9.8%)
Scotch Gambit / Göring Gambit    
  1 (2.0%)
Italian / Two Knights    
  10 (19.6%)
Evans Gambit / Two Knights    
  3 (5.9%)
Ponziani    
  0 (0.0%)
Ruy Lopez Exchange    
  2 (3.9%)
Ruy Lopez Worrall    
  4 (7.8%)
Ruy Lopez "Classical"    
  14 (27.5%)




Total votes: 51
« Last Modified by: thibdb13 on: 06/22/10 at 08:16:47 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C20-C99: Switching to e4 (Read 24476 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #78 - 06/25/10 at 20:12:40
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I think I acknowledged that in the original post:

SWJediknight wrote on 06/24/10 at 16:47:54:
Nigel Short has scored well with 4.Ng5 against the Two Knights.  I think it works well at up to around the 1500 level, because most players as Black don't know what they're doing and many allow the Lolli & Fried Liver, and it works well at high levels too. 


I think enjoying both saccing and defending a pawn isn't as counter-intuitive as many gambiteers think, e.g. those who enjoy gambits because of the resulting imbalance and complications, which can equally apply to either.
  
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #77 - 06/25/10 at 15:35:07
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SWJediknight wrote on 06/24/10 at 16:47:54:
Nigel Short has scored well with 4.Ng5 against the Two Knights.  I think it works well at up to around the 1500 level,

Short - and also Tsjigorin - were quite above 1500. If White is flexible, like these two, and enjoys both saccing and defending a pawn the Evans and 4.Ng5 form a great combination.
  

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thibdb13
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #76 - 06/25/10 at 11:12:03
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Waster wrote on 06/25/10 at 08:09:45:
Why nobody is mentioning the exchange ruy lopez?


But I didn't even thought of playing it.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Waster
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #75 - 06/25/10 at 08:09:45
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Why nobody is mentioning the exchange ruy lopez? Its even played by Fisscher i thought. But the normal Ruy Lopez isnt that hard to play. The main line and most side sidelines are pretty straightforward. Castle, Re1, c3, (h3), d4 and hop your knight Nd2-f1-e3/g3-d5/f5. Only though nuts to crack is the open and the archangel. Dont forget to play a move order to avoid the marshall. The most important thing for me at least is to have a straightforward plan. And thats easier in the Ruy Lopez as it is in the Scottish.

Another line that was extremely popular on my club was the scotch gambit. Especially the e5 d5 Bb5 Ne4 Nd4 etc line. I would recommend that line (or play 0-0 instead of e5) then going for the pawn with Ng5.

But i wont recommend the italian at all. White wants a pawn break if he wants the initiative. Either d4 or f4, but those are extremely hard to manage in the italian. The reason is that with the bishop on c4, there are a lot of tricks with Nxe4 and d5. Freeing black while attacking the bishop and defending the knight. In the Ruy Lopez with the bishop on b5 white is fast enough for the c3-d4 pawn break and so can do without defending the e4 pawn. Its way easier to create your center and maintain the initiative in the ruy lopez without sacrificing a pawn. In the italian you are likely to play either the evans or moller. Both involving a pawn sacrifice. The Guico piano is the only setup that goes for c3-d4 in the italian, but is so much slower as the ruy lopez that it doesnt make sense to me. Sometimes black manages even to play d5 before white can make his d4 pawn break.

If you want to go for c3-d4 pawn center and long lasting initiative, go for the ruy lopez. If you want a open strategic battle (with of without queens), go scotch. If you want early initiative go kings gambit. If you want to do it a bit different and want a f4 pawn break without directly sacrificing it (a bit like the queens gambit) go for slower setups with Nc3/Bc4 and a later f4.

Sorry i wont recommend italian at all. It was my first opening till i came to the conclusion that it isnt in line with the e4 e5 opening at all. And i should know because i played e4 e5 openings with both colours for years  Tongue
  
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thibdb13
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #74 - 06/24/10 at 17:08:08
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Oh, and I forgot: thanks everybody for his meaning!
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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thibdb13
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #73 - 06/24/10 at 17:07:29
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sim wrote on 06/24/10 at 14:49:25:
Quote:
But in any given game of chess, particularly between us untitled players, the better player can expect to win even in the Two Knights.

I find that especially true for the 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 lines. I always lose in that variation, it doesn't matter if I play black or white.
Quote:
Theoretically, the Two Knights is fully adequate for Black, and that's the long and the short of it.
The long lasting edge you get in the Spanish or Scotch means precisely that you can prevent black from entering lines that are theoretically fully adequate. Consequently, I think if one wants to avoid the two knights because it is equal for black, one should play the Spanish or the Scotch.
Which is to say: I think you should indeed try the Evans and take the 2 knights with it (either the 4.Ng5 or the d3/c3 lines). But if it turns out the two knights doesn't work for you, it's all the more reason to try the Spanish.

I'd say you can read my thoughts!  Smiley
So, OK, I'll first try the Evans/2 knights, at least it'll give me a first contact with e4-e5, and then when the time will be ripe, I'll think of switching to the Ruy Lopez or the Scotch.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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SWJediknight
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #72 - 06/24/10 at 16:47:54
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Nigel Short has scored well with 4.Ng5 against the Two Knights.  I think it works well at up to around the 1500 level, because most players as Black don't know what they're doing and many allow the Lolli & Fried Liver, and it works well at high levels too.  But in between, Black seems to score very well against it, presumably because Black knows to let the pawn go and it is often easier at that standard to have an initiative than defend with an extra pawn.

The 4.d4 lines aren't too bad, 4...exd4 5.e5 may not give any advantage but leads to positions where both sides can play for a win, and Stefan Bücker & Lev Gutman have found ideas after 5.0-0 that also give enough imbalance for both sides to play for a win (indeed the Max Lange proper, with fxg7 and Bg5 rather than Ng5, might even give White an edge).
  
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #71 - 06/24/10 at 14:49:25
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Quote:
But in any given game of chess, particularly between us untitled players, the better player can expect to win even in the Two Knights.

I find that especially true for the 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 lines. I always lose in that variation, it doesn't matter if I play black or white.
Quote:
Theoretically, the Two Knights is fully adequate for Black, and that's the long and the short of it.
The long lasting edge you get in the Spanish or Scotch means precisely that you can prevent black from entering lines that are theoretically fully adequate. Consequently, I think if one wants to avoid the two knights because it is equal for black, one should play the Spanish or the Scotch.
Which is to say: I think you should indeed try the Evans and take the 2 knights with it (either the 4.Ng5 or the d3/c3 lines). But if it turns out the two knights doesn't work for you, it's all the more reason to try the Spanish.
  
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #70 - 06/24/10 at 13:41:19
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Theoretically, the Two Knights is fully adequate for Black, and that's the long and the short of it.  But in any given game of chess, particularly between us untitled players, the better player can expect to win even in the Two Knights.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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thibdb13
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #69 - 06/24/10 at 11:38:03
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sim wrote on 06/24/10 at 08:26:10:
thibdb13 wrote on 06/23/10 at 07:13:50:
So, if I understand it good, I should conclude that:

  • The Scotch and the Ruy Lopez are ideal for a long lasting edge. There is less theory for the Scotch (=easier(?) to learn) but it is more difficult for black in the Ruy Lopez to play "correctly"
  • The Italian is for the very patient one's.
  • The Evans and the King's Gambit could be very efficient early in the game but prepared opponents could/should survive it.
  • The Vienna and the Ponziani are useful as surprise weapons but not more.



Yes. Except that all in all the Evans might still be the opening that matches your criteria most. The problem with the Evans is not so much that prepared opponents could survive it. The problem is that black can play 3... Nf6 and prevent you reaching the Evans.

You are right: my feeling is that I should try the Evans and take the 2 knights with it. But it must not be that terrible. Up to the statistics on chessgames.com for the years 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, it seems plays Bc5 about 65% of the time and Nf6 only in one third of the games.
This is not so different from what happens with 1.d4. I like to play the Botvinnik and the moscow with white, but usually my opponents are opting for the Cambridge Springs or other QGD-like variations. There is always a price to pay  Wink
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #68 - 06/24/10 at 11:09:41
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Ne4 6.d4 ed4. Better than its reputation, but in my view it leads to a slight advantage for White.
  

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Gorath
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #67 - 06/24/10 at 10:44:53
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What's the Riga Variation?
  
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #66 - 06/24/10 at 10:24:10
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British humour, funny. - I checked the "Bachmann"...  Embarrassed
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #65 - 06/24/10 at 09:04:00
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Quote:
Michael Ayton wrote on Yesterday at 15:40:

Steinitz played it.

Indeed? He played 3...f6, but 3...Ke7 would be a bit extreme even for Steinitz.


Sorry, that was a heavy-handed attempt at irony on my part!! Cheesy
  
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Re: Switching to e4
Reply #64 - 06/24/10 at 08:26:10
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thibdb13 wrote on 06/23/10 at 07:13:50:
So, if I understand it good, I should conclude that:

  • The Scotch and the Ruy Lopez are ideal for a long lasting edge. There is less theory for the Scotch (=easier(?) to learn) but it is more difficult for black in the Ruy Lopez to play "correctly"
  • The Italian is for the very patient one's.
  • The Evans and the King's Gambit could be very efficient early in the game but prepared opponents could/should survive it.
  • The Vienna and the Ponziani are useful as surprise weapons but not more.



Yes. Except that all in all the Evans might still be the opening that matches your criteria most. The problem with the Evans is not so much that prepared opponents could survive it. The problem is that black can play 3... Nf6 and prevent you reaching the Evans.
  
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