Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch) (Read 27384 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #26 - 01/05/11 at 13:04:35
Post Tools
linksspringer wrote on 06/21/10 at 09:19:02:
There is an article (in French) on Taylor's 7.Nc3 here:
http://ouverturebird.free.fr/fichetechnique11.php

Fortunately I can read a little French. The author writes: I have problems to find an advantage for White.
As if 1.f4 should be superior to say 6.Bg5 against the Najdorf.  Cheesy

The article is nice though. The entire site should be checked by all Bird-devotees.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #25 - 01/05/11 at 12:35:40
Post Tools
linksspringer wrote on 06/21/10 at 09:19:02:
There is an article (in French) on Taylor's 7.Nc3 here:
http://ouverturebird.free.fr/fichetechnique11.php
I noticed Peter Williams had success with it at Hastings, although he needed some cooperation from his opponent:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1567325

There is also Keith Hayward's line 7.Qe1 Nc6 8.Nc3, with the idea 8...d4 9.Nd1.
http://www.oocities.com/drawyah/

Just quoting my own post from earlier in this thread for the link to the French site with excellent discussion of Taylor's 7.Nc3.  Wink

Talking about Hastings: in this edition Simon Williams played the Classical Bird vs Zhou: 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Be2 Nc6 5.O-O Nh6 6.d3 d5 7.e4 dxe4 8.dxe4 Qxd1 9.Bxd1 and the GM managed to grind down his opponent in the endgame. Not theoretically significant, just nice to see Williams playing the Classical with White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul123
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 109
Location: USA
Joined: 11/01/03
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #24 - 01/05/11 at 01:45:22
Post Tools
Code
Select All
MNb: "Consult a book on the Iljin-Zjenevsky; use the extra tempo to meet the best lines and the fight in that line of the Bird is on equal terms, not uphill. It's my strong impression that say Williams' Play the Classical Dutch is a better source than Taylor's book." 



There it sits on pg 18 of Williams' book  7...Nc6?! a typical mistake and then goes on to give the line I saw  (all be it with colors reversed)   Thanks... I'm in agreement with you (On who's got the better book) 

Thanks...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #23 - 01/03/11 at 12:01:08
Post Tools
Compare 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c4 d6 and now both 7.b4 and 7.Nc3 a5 are well known. That means that in the Bird a2-a4 is a useful move.
If White plays Qd1-e1 before pushing the e-pawn - and more precise even before Nc3 - White is OK.
So 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 g6 3.e3 Bg7 4.Be2 Nf6 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 (7.Qe1 Nc6 8.a4 or 7.a4) Nc6 8.Qe1 (here you are right: 8.a4 d4! 9.Ne4 Nd5 is an inferior line of the Iljin-Zjenevsky where the extra move a4 is useless) d4 9.Nd1 dxe3 10.Nxe3 Qc7 11.Nc4 with more or less equality.
Consult a book on the Iljin-Zjenevsky; use the extra tempo to meet the best lines and the fight in that line of the Bird is on equal terms, not uphill. It's my strong impression that say Williams' Play the Classical Dutch is a better source than Taylor's book.
This site contains a lot of games by an experienced corr. player of both the Bird and the Iljin-Zjenevsky:

http://www.oocities.com/drawyah/
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul123
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 109
Location: USA
Joined: 11/01/03
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #22 - 01/02/11 at 23:28:34
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 01/02/11 at 20:45:07:
Paul123 wrote on 01/02/11 at 16:27:13:
I think after either 7...a6 or 7...Nc6  8. Ne5 might be better but only resulting in equality for white.

Or, I repeat it, the thematic 8.Qe1 and only then 9.e4. Is White trying to play an improved Classical Dutch or what (this refers to 8.e4 when dxe4 does not look appealing either)?
For the same reason I also prefer 8.a4.


I haven't look at lines where white plays a4. However,  In scope of white's pawn formation ( f4, e3 and d3 ) and black's ability to push the pawn to d4, activating the bishop at g7, supported by the attack mentioned above... Followed by Black attacking  the f4 pawn by playing Qc7 and e4 and pressures the knight at f3 with Bg4.  I don't see playing a pawn to a4 changing anything.

White fights an uphill battle... I wish it wasn't that way..  I like playing the Bird,
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #21 - 01/02/11 at 20:45:07
Post Tools
Paul123 wrote on 01/02/11 at 16:27:13:
I think after either 7...a6 or 7...Nc6  8. Ne5 might be better but only resulting in equality for white.

Or, I repeat it, the thematic 8.Qe1 and only then 9.e4. Is White trying to play an improved Classical Dutch or what (this refers to 8.e4 when dxe4 does not look appealing either)?
For the same reason I also prefer 8.a4.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul123
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 109
Location: USA
Joined: 11/01/03
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #20 - 01/02/11 at 16:27:13
Post Tools

Sorry for the bad analysis...

I would have replied sooner, My Kendo and Karate takes up a lot of my time.    I started looking at this about two weeks ago...

1.f4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. d3 d5 4. e3 Bg7 5. Be2 0-0 6. 0-0 c5 7. Nc3   On 7...Nc6 (A natural response...) Taylor gives 8. e4 d4 9. Na4 Nd7 10. c4 a6 11. b3 b5 12. Nb2 ...with a favorable reversed King Indian type of position    "Taylor" pg 28  citing the game B.Larsen-SGligoric, Dallas 1957

 

[Event "It"]
[Site "Dallas (USA)"]
[Date "1957"]
[Round ""]
[White "Larsen Bent (DEN)"]
[Black "Gligoric Svetozar (SCG)"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E66"]
[Annotator "kkkk"]
[Source ""]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.O-O O-O 5.c4 d6 6.d4 c5 7.Nc3 Nc6
8.d5 Na5 9.Nd2 e5 10.a3 b6 11.b4 Nb7 12.Nb3 Ne8 13.e4 f5 14.exf5
gxf5 15.Bb2 Bd7 16.b5 Qg5 17.f4 Qg6 18.fxe5 Bxe5 19.Qc2 Nf6 20.Nd1
Rae8 21.Re1 Ng4 22.Bxe5 dxe5 23.Nf2 Nd6 24.Nxg4 Qxg4 25.Rac1
f4 26.Nd2 fxg3 27.Ne4 Bf5 28.Re3 gxh2+ 29.Kh1 Re7 30.Qe2 Qxe2
31.Rxe2 Bxe4 32.Bxe4 Rf4 33.Bg2 Kg7 34.Bh3 Kf6 35.Rxh2 h5 36.Rg2
Rg7 37.Rxg7 Kxg7 38.Rg1+ Kf6 39.Rg8 e4 40.Rh8 e3 41.Rh6+ Kg5
42.Re6 Re4 0-1   

Taylor cites this as favorable for white because he has reached the same position, spending two tempi less that black did.  Am I missing something?  IMO the position works for Black  because of this very two spent tempi.  White can not play Ng5 with an eye of reaching e6 due to the pawn on f7 guarding the square. Only after white moves the knight can/does Black play f5.  In colors reversed Black can (and should!!!!) which mucks up everything for white resulting in a terrible position. 

1. f4 d5
2. Nf3 g6
3. e3 Bg7
4. Be2 Nf6
5. 0-0 0-0
6. d3 c5
7. Nc3 Nc6
8. e4?! d4!?
9. Na4 b6
10. c4 Ng4!? heading for e3...  10...Bd7 is also strong for black

As cited 7...a6 8. e4 d4 9.Na4 b6 10. b3 Ng4!?   

I think after either 7...a6 or 7...Nc6  8. Ne5 might be better but only resulting in equality for white. (Although, I don't like the resulting positions..)

8. e4 I'm giving an ?! (IMO that throws a huge monkey wrench into Taylor's work on the Classical Bird's Opening as a whole....  Embarrassed
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hehmer
Ex Member


Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #19 - 10/14/10 at 18:42:42
Post Tools
Paul123 wrote on 10/14/10 at 02:12:34:
quote

I once tried this in a correspondence game against an opponent rated 200 points above me. He soon got a very good position by playing 7...a6!? 8.a4 (8.e4 d4 9.Na4?! Nfd7 and 10.b5 =+) 8...Nc6 9.e4 d4 10.Nb1 Ne8 =+ 11.Bd2?! Nd6 12.Be1? e5! -/+. Here I resigned for private reasons but the position is disgusting anyway. Black will open the position with f5 and then e3 is very weak due to the misplaced Be1.

/quote

8.e4?! (maybe 8.Ne5!? Qc7 9.Bf3 Rd8 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Nxc6 QxN and 12. e4! white achieves his push to e4 with an edge. )  8... d4   Maybe 9.e5!?  I think pushing the pawn to e5 attacking  might be the better.  After all why push the pawn to e4 if one isn't going to attack e5 and f5 or occupy e5 all together.

9...Nfd7 10 Nb1 Nc6 11. c3 b5 12.Na3 etc ...maybe with 13. Nc2 taking on d4 looks equal

9...Ng4 10. Ne4 Qc7 11. h3 Nh6 12. a4 Bf5 13. Ned2 is unclear to me


just some thoughts


8.e4 d4 9.e5 fails to 9...dxc3 winning a pawn. According to my notes I dismissed 8.Ne5 because of 8...d4 9.Ne4 Qc7 =/=+. Today I think 9...Nxe4 10.dxe4 Bxe5 11.fxe5 Nc6 is even better and =+.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #18 - 10/14/10 at 09:44:48
Post Tools
Quote:
In general I don't think that Nc3 and Qe1 go together well, but 8.Qe1 should be sufficient for equality, i.e. 8...d4 9.Ne4 Nxe4 10.dxe4 Nc6 =.
After 8.a4 Nc6 9.Qe1 d4 10.Ne4 Nd5 I prefer Black though.

What regular Dutch are you referring to? Right now I'm not aware of any line where White answers e5 with d5.

The Iljin-Zjenevsky. White always can answer Black's ...e5 with d5. Sometimes Black can play ...e5 while the Knight is still on b8.
Anyhow, 8.Qe1 d4 9.Nd1 is thematic and so is 8.a4 Nc6 9.Qe1 d4 10.Nd1 Qc7 11.e4, not fearing Nb4 12.Qd2 and 13.c3.
Rybka's evaluation is wrong here. Chances are about equal in this Classical-KID structure. White will rearrange his/her pieces and start a KID-like attack.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul123
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 109
Location: USA
Joined: 11/01/03
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #17 - 10/14/10 at 02:12:34
Post Tools
[/quote]

I once tried this in a correspondence game against an opponent rated 200 points above me. He soon got a very good position by playing 7...a6!? 8.a4 (8.e4 d4 9.Na4?! Nfd7 and 10.b5 =+) 8...Nc6 9.e4 d4 10.Nb1 Ne8 =+ 11.Bd2?! Nd6 12.Be1? e5! -/+. Here I resigned for private reasons but the position is disgusting anyway. Black will open the position with f5 and then e3 is very weak due to the misplaced Be1.

[/quote]

8.e4?! (maybe 8.Ne5!? Qc7 9.Bf3 Rd8 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Nxc6 QxN and 12. e4! white achieves his push to e4 with an edge. )  8... d4   Maybe 9.e5!?  I think pushing the pawn to e5 attacking  might be the better.  After all why push the pawn to e4 if one isn't going to attack e5 and f5 or occupy e5 all together.

9...Nfd7 10 Nb1 Nc6 11. c3 b5 12.Na3 etc ...maybe with 13. Nc2 taking on d4 looks equal

9...Ng4 10. Ne4 Qc7 11. h3 Nh6 12. a4 Bf5 13. Ned2 is unclear to me


just some thoughts
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hehmer
Ex Member


Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #16 - 10/13/10 at 17:53:03
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 10/13/10 at 15:57:38:
Quote:
1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 a6!? 8.a4 (8.e4 d4 9.Na4?! Nfd7 and 10.b5 =+) 8...Nc6 9.e4 d4 10.Nb1 Ne8 =+ 11.Bd2?! Nd6 12.Be1? e5! -/+


Improvements are 9.Qe1 and 8.Qe1. It is rather lame to withdraw your knight to b1 again. Compared to the regular Dutch you have lost at least one tempo.


In general I don't think that Nc3 and Qe1 go together well, but 8.Qe1 should be sufficient for equality, i.e. 8...d4 9.Ne4 Nxe4 10.dxe4 Nc6 =.
After 8.a4 Nc6 9.Qe1 d4 10.Ne4 Nd5 I prefer Black though.

What regular Dutch are you referring to? Right now I'm not aware of any line where White answers e5 with d5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #15 - 10/13/10 at 15:57:38
Post Tools
Quote:
1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 a6!? 8.a4 (8.e4 d4 9.Na4?! Nfd7 and 10.b5 =+) 8...Nc6 9.e4 d4 10.Nb1 Ne8 =+ 11.Bd2?! Nd6 12.Be1? e5! -/+


Improvements are 9.Qe1 and 8.Qe1. It is rather lame to withdraw your knight to b1 again. Compared to the regular Dutch you have lost at least one tempo.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hehmer
Ex Member


Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #14 - 10/13/10 at 08:04:40
Post Tools
Paul123 wrote on 10/13/10 at 01:27:13:
However.... The Classical Bird 7.Nc3 looks promising.

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3

7...Nc6 8.e4! 

8...d4 (8...dxe4 dxe4 gave white += Kan-Vaglio Munoz, Haifa 1976; (see the game for more info black can improve)

9.Na4 Nd7 10.c4 a6 (10...dxc3 11.Nxc3 Nd4 12.e5 Nb8 13.Nxd4 Qxd4+ 14.Kh1 Nc6 15.Bf3 Bf5 16.Re1 Qxd3 17.Be3 For a pawn white gets two active Bishops and the initiative) 11.b3 b5 12.Nb2!? looks like a slight advantage white 



I once tried this in a correspondence game against an opponent rated 200 points above me. He soon got a very good position by playing 7...a6!? 8.a4 (8.e4 d4 9.Na4?! Nfd7 and 10.b5 =+) 8...Nc6 9.e4 d4 10.Nb1 Ne8 =+ 11.Bd2?! Nd6 12.Be1? e5! -/+. Here I resigned for private reasons but the position is disgusting anyway. Black will open the position with f5 and then e3 is very weak due to the misplaced Be1.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paul123
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 109
Location: USA
Joined: 11/01/03
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #13 - 10/13/10 at 01:27:13
Post Tools
Fromper wrote on 06/20/10 at 02:40:04:
Looking at IM Timothy Taylor's "Bird's Opening" book, he states that he's not really sure what white's best 7th move is in the main line after 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 g6 4. Be2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. d3 c5. He recommends avoiding the most popular older move, 7. Qe1, and gives 7. Nc3 as his personal choice. He also mentions 7. a4 as an option, and interestingly doesn't seem to mention 7. Ne5, though I haven't read the whole chapter from cover to cover, so I might have just missed it.

As a Classical Dutch player, I know that in the analogous position after 1. d4 f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3, 7. ... Qe8 is also the old, most popular move that is no longer considered that great. But in the Dutch, 7. ... Nc6 is considered "slightly dubious", as GM Simon Williams says in his "Killer Dutch" DVD (while still recommending it as an occasional weapon for surprise value). 7. ... Ne4 and 7. ... a5 are also considered decent options, so the options between the Bird and Dutch versions of this line are obviously pretty similar.

What I'm trying to figure out is why Taylor likes 7. Nc3 so much, when it's considered so inferior in the analogous Dutch line. It seems to have pretty much the same drawback in both, despite black not having his knight on c6 yet in the Bird version, so I'm trying to see how the extra tempo helps white that much in the Bird.

I don't play much over the board mainly postal/internet games etc. I do play the Bird and like it. I think it has merit.  However, few play the orthodox lines.   


However.... The Classical Bird 7.Nc3 looks promising.

1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 d4 8.Ne4 Nxe4 9.dxe4 dxe3 10.Qxd8 Rxd8 11.c3 b6 12.Bxe3  A space advantage and superior development gives white a pull. Taylor    I would have to agree. Study the position and you will give black a hard time. 


ON 7...Bg4?! 8.Nh4 (8.Ne5 with the idea of Bf3 and e3-e4 also looks good for white...Taylor) 8...Bxe2? 9.Qxe2 Nc6 10.e4 dxe4 11.dxe4 Again white achieves his goal of having pawns at e4 and f4!  8...Bd7 9.e4! And again white gets to play e4!


7...Nc6 8.e4! 

8...d4 (8...dxe4 dxe4 gave white += Kan-Vaglio Munoz, Haifa 1976; (see the game for more info black can improve)

9.Na4 Nd7 10.c4 a6 (10...dxc3 11.Nxc3 Nd4 12.e5 Nb8 13.Nxd4 Qxd4+ 14.Kh1 Nc6 15.Bf3 Bf5 16.Re1 Qxd3 17.Be3 For a pawn white gets two active Bishops and the initiative) 11.b3 b5 12.Nb2!? looks like a slight advantage white 


Here is Simon Williams idea reversed   7...Nc6 8.Ne5!? Qc7 (8...Nxe5 9.fxe5 Nd7 10.Nxd5 Nxe5 11.e4+=)  10.Bf3 Rd8 11. Qe2 and white yet again achieves the edge with e3-e4 +=


IMO.... The difficulty in opening with 1.f4 doesn't lie in 1...d5 or 1...e5  1...c5  

1. f4 limits your responses to the Sicilian (this could be good or bad depending on how one looks at it... Taylor's recommended Be2 lines  i.e....a reversed  English 1...e5 with a tempo initiative looks sound, having played it a couple of times in postal chess)

1...f5 plays like a symmetrical English (I always liked the symmetrical English so this is ok with me...but as in the symmetrical English, no advantage can be gained ...white must look for an advantage in the maneuvering of his pieces)   There is the occasional 1...d5 2.Nf3 Bf5 which i seem to struggle with. On 2...Bf5  more times than not..... I enter into a Stonewall attack as white ...yes...yes...its archaic and not cutting edge... but a favorable Stonewall Attack is  dangerous for black and fun to play as white if I can get it ("if" being the key word)   I would recommend studying the Stonewall Attack to understand when its ok to play it and when it isn't ok. (as Taylor recommends....)

With 1.f4 d5  2. Nf3 Bg4..... I play the little explored reversed Tromp lines (Danielsen's reply to 2...Bg4 is awesome but black doesn't have to allow it by  steering the game into reversed French lines.   

I also play the Nimzo-larsen so I'm a true "flank aficionado" my opinions about the Bird are certainly bias....   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nyoke
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 593
Location: BELGIUM
Joined: 12/31/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #12 - 08/31/10 at 18:49:49
Post Tools
Yes, Black should first get in some more Hayward first... d4... and then when the N is on d1...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #11 - 08/17/10 at 08:10:39
Post Tools
What's the problem after 9.Bd1, a move that White wants to play anyway?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nyoke
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 593
Location: BELGIUM
Joined: 12/31/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #10 - 08/16/10 at 19:57:17
Post Tools
Quote:
suspect more people will figure it out soon, though.


Are you hinting at 7. Ne5 ?

Quote:
I like Hayward's 7.Qe1 and 8.Nc3 best.


So do a lot of a Black players : 8. ...,Nb4

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #9 - 06/30/10 at 16:25:56
Post Tools
The French website I linked to above recommends the following for Black against Hayward's variation:
(1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.O-O O-O 6.d3 c5 7.Qe1 Nc6 8.Nc3)
8...d4! 9.Nd1 dxe3 10.Nxe3 Nd5 11.Nc4 Qc7 12.Qh4 b5! 13.Nce5 Nd4! "and Black had at least equalised in the game Hayward-Fleetwood, corr. 1992".

What is your opinion here, Keith?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
drawyah
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 20
Location: Corinth
Joined: 08/19/05
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #8 - 06/27/10 at 13:49:20
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 06/23/10 at 22:01:20:
I like Hayward's 7.Qe1 and 8.Nc3 best. It maintains the extra tempo.
Moreover 7.a4 Nc6 8.Qe1 Re8 9.Qg3 e5 might lead to positions in which the pawn on a4 is actually worse than on a2.


I have never gotten into playing a4 in the Classical variation, I agree that it does not stop Black's queenside play and might help it. I think the key to the classical formation is to play for e4, and the quicker the better.

The true value of the Bird's Opening is that most opponents must "think". When I play 1 e4, I frequently debate Sicilian theory, and to be blunt, it is usually me that does not measure up. Besides, I dislike being a theory parrot. Instead, I find the following more fun:

[Event "ICC 5 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2010.06.26"]
[White "drawyah"]
[Black "KingT"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A02"]
[WhiteElo "2151"]
[BlackElo "2300"]
1. f4 Na6 2. Nf3 Nh6 3. e4 g6 4. d4 f6 5. Bd3 Bg7 6. c3 e6 7. O-O d6 8. f5 gxf5 9. exf5 e5 10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Kh1 O-O 12. Nbd2 c6 13. Nh4 Qe8 14. Ne4 d5 15. Nd6 Qe7 16. Qg4+ Bg7 17. dxe5 fxe5 18. Nxc8 Raxc8 19. Rae1 Nc7 20. f6 Qe6 21. Qxg7# 1-0

Here is an example of where having a3 available is helpful:

[Event "Midwest Masters"]
[Site "Chicago IL"]
[Date "1990.03.16"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Hayward, Keith"]
[Black "Taylor, Tim"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B21"]
[WhiteElo "2311"]
[BlackElo "2476"]
1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 g6 3. d3 Bg7 4. e4 Nc6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Qe1 b5 8. Kh1 b4 9. a3 Bb7 10. axb4 Nxb4 11. Na3 O-O 12. e5 Nd7 13. d4 dxe5 14. dxe5 e6 15. c3 Nd5 16. Nc4 f6 17. exf6 Qxf6 18. Ng5 N7b6 19. Nd6 Bc6 20. Bg4 Nc7 21. Be3 Nbd5 22. Bxc5 Nxf4 23. Nde4 Qe5 24. Bd6 Nxg2 25. Qd2 Bxe4 26. Bxe5 Ne1+ 27. Kg1 1-0

Good Chess! Keith
  
Back to top
WWWAIM  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10709
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #7 - 06/23/10 at 22:01:20
Post Tools
I like Hayward's 7.Qe1 and 8.Nc3 best. It maintains the extra tempo.
Moreover 7.a4 Nc6 8.Qe1 Re8 9.Qg3 e5 might lead to positions in which the pawn on a4 is actually worse than on a2.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nyoke
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 593
Location: BELGIUM
Joined: 12/31/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #6 - 06/23/10 at 17:57:56
Post Tools
Personally I like 7. a4. It counters the b5-ideas (compare with Dutch) and gets rid of the tempo in a useful way...
No big deal, but still...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nyoke
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 593
Location: BELGIUM
Joined: 12/31/06
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #5 - 06/23/10 at 17:51:13
Post Tools
Quote:
I suspect more people will figure it out soon, though.


Unfortunately.

Why not let them happily believe it's an inferior move ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #4 - 06/21/10 at 15:23:48
Post Tools
JustGambling wrote on 06/21/10 at 11:00:48:
Fromper wrote on 06/20/10 at 02:40:04:
I just hate the idea of playing moves that I know are inferior, even if most opponents aren't that likely to find the "refutation". I'm one of those people who thinks Chess should always be about trying to find the best possible move, and assuming your opponent will find the best move, too. So the concept of "rolling the dice" on an inferior move in the hopes that the opponent won't figure it out just isn't my style.

Why u play 1.f4? then .......

You know, when I first wrote that paragraph, I had the feeling some smart*** was going to make this type of comment. Taylor even said in the intro to his Bird's Opening book that the 1. f4 player will constantly get negative comments from other players about this opening, and it's definitely true. I've seen that already after only a couple of months playing it.

Linksspringer, thanks for those links. I only remember a little of the French that I learned in high school, but it may be enough to wade through that article, picking out moves, even if I can't understand all the comments.

And again, that Peter Williams game didn't hit the critical line. I just think it's interesting that there seems to be a clear best reply by black that nobody has ever actually played. It may just be a case of this opening by white being infrequent enough that the best book line for black just hasn't reached the masses. Given that the corresponding line in the Classical Dutch is covered in both Williams' "Killer Dutch" DVD and the "Dangerous Weapons: Dutch" book, I suspect more people will figure it out soon, though.

  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #3 - 06/21/10 at 13:51:36
Post Tools
JustGambling wrote on 06/21/10 at 11:00:48:
Fromper wrote on 06/20/10 at 02:40:04:
I just hate the idea of playing moves that I know are inferior, even if most opponents aren't that likely to find the "refutation". I'm one of those people who thinks Chess should always be about trying to find the best possible move, and assuming your opponent will find the best move, too. So the concept of "rolling the dice" on an inferior move in the hopes that the opponent won't figure it out just isn't my style.

Why u play 1.f4? then .......

Flamebait. Moderator?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JustGambling
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/08/09
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #2 - 06/21/10 at 11:00:48
Post Tools
Fromper wrote on 06/20/10 at 02:40:04:
I just hate the idea of playing moves that I know are inferior, even if most opponents aren't that likely to find the "refutation". I'm one of those people who thinks Chess should always be about trying to find the best possible move, and assuming your opponent will find the best move, too. So the concept of "rolling the dice" on an inferior move in the hopes that the opponent won't figure it out just isn't my style.

Why u play 1.f4? then .......
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
Reply #1 - 06/21/10 at 09:19:02
Post Tools
There is an article (in French) on Taylor's 7.Nc3 here:
http://ouverturebird.free.fr/fichetechnique11.php
I noticed Peter Williams had success with it at Hastings, although he needed some cooperation from his opponent:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1567325

There is also Keith Hayward's line 7.Qe1 Nc6 8.Nc3, with the idea 8...d4 9.Nd1.
http://www.oocities.com/drawyah/
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fromper
Senior Member
****
Offline


GrandPatzer

Posts: 378
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Joined: 03/12/10
Gender: Male
Classical Bird (vs Classical Dutch)
06/20/10 at 02:40:04
Post Tools
Looking at IM Timothy Taylor's "Bird's Opening" book, he states that he's not really sure what white's best 7th move is in the main line after 1. f4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. e3 g6 4. Be2 Bg7 5. O-O O-O 6. d3 c5. He recommends avoiding the most popular older move, 7. Qe1, and gives 7. Nc3 as his personal choice. He also mentions 7. a4 as an option, and interestingly doesn't seem to mention 7. Ne5, though I haven't read the whole chapter from cover to cover, so I might have just missed it.

As a Classical Dutch player, I know that in the analogous position after 1. d4 f5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. g3 e6 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. c4 d6 7. Nc3, 7. ... Qe8 is also the old, most popular move that is no longer considered that great. But in the Dutch, 7. ... Nc6 is considered "slightly dubious", as GM Simon Williams says in his "Killer Dutch" DVD (while still recommending it as an occasional weapon for surprise value). 7. ... Ne4 and 7. ... a5 are also considered decent options, so the options between the Bird and Dutch versions of this line are obviously pretty similar.

What I'm trying to figure out is why Taylor likes 7. Nc3 so much, when it's considered so inferior in the analogous Dutch line. It seems to have pretty much the same drawback in both, despite black not having his knight on c6 yet in the Bird version, so I'm trying to see how the extra tempo helps white that much in the Bird.

In the Dutch, the critical line after 7. ... Nc6 is 8. d5 Ne5 9. Nd4 Nxc4 and white will capture the e6 pawn next.

The similar line in the Bird is 7. Nc3 d4 8. Ne4 and Taylor says "Evidently critical is the unexplored 8. ... Nd5", but then states that he couldn't find any games where black played that. I just checked, and I couldn't find any games that continued that way, either. Could it be that Taylor's just assuming 7. Nc3 works because nobody has actually played the most testing continuation, even though it seems apparent that 8. ... Nd5 messes up white's plans? Or is there a concrete reason that this line is so much better for white in the Bird than it is for black in the Dutch?

I just hate the idea of playing moves that I know are inferior, even if most opponents aren't that likely to find the "refutation". I'm one of those people who thinks Chess should always be about trying to find the best possible move, and assuming your opponent will find the best move, too. So the concept of "rolling the dice" on an inferior move in the hopes that the opponent won't figure it out just isn't my style.
  

GrandPatzer!!!

1777 peak USCF rating - currently 1620 from coming back rusty
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo