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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Starting Out: The Colle Question (Read 48351 times)
MNb
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #24 - 09/16/11 at 14:18:45
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 06:57:52:
Good luck in talking to a Surinamese audience, hat's off to you.

That FM Bücker remark was meant for me. I live in Suriname. Despite Dutch bias Germans have a nice sense of humour, something I know since Fassbinder's Lola, probably the funniest movie ever. This is FM Bücker's way to tell me that my remark on Colle is crap. I appreciate this way very much.  Cheesy

DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 06:57:52:
He mentioned there's a region at the northern part of the border where the two languages are very similar.

Along the entire Dutch-German border people living there understand each other perfectly as long they are speaking their dialect. At the other hand if FM Bücker and I ever meet we will probably understand each other better if he speaks Standard German and I Standard Dutch. The dialect I use - Hollandic with a Surinamese accent - is quite different in pronunciation from the border dialects.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/16/11 at 08:36:26:
Which could explain why they introduced "Grand Prix Attack" for what was formerly named "Vinken System".

Actually I have seen the name "Vinken System" only in Dutch sources. What's more, I only know games by Alex Vinken beginning with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bb5.
So despite me loving to dispute American-English claims in opening nomenclature I have to give in that they are right here.

Jupp53 wrote on 09/16/11 at 11:05:15:
But a common language in the described region is Friesian, still spoken by some hundred people in Germany and a little more in the Netherlands.

Oef  Shocked, I hope no Frisians or Grönnegers read this. Frisia is absolutely not on the German-Dutch border; Groningen is. Frisian is completely different from Grönnegs.
Frisian is much older than Dutch; at least since 1100, but likely from several ages before.
Standard Dutch only definitely separated from German since the 16th Century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Germanic_Groups_ca._0CE.jpg

The thing is that only very, very few people really speak Standard Dutch; according to Dutch Wikipedia only in the towns Haarlem, Dronten and Zeewolde. That makes it very hard to draw sharp lines. Frisian is the exception.
  

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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #23 - 09/16/11 at 13:05:13
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 06:57:52:
Yes, English speaking people are constantly mispronouncing the names of people in other countries with names that would be unusual in either the UK, Canada, or the United States. We see it constantly in chess DVDs where people like Nigel Davies, and Andrew Martin give the name of one or both players and immediately appologize for having mispronounced either, or more likely both names and, of course, the same would be true in citing variations or even most place names.

One exception seems to be Daniel King; in fact, he often goes in the other direction, giving the bastardized "English" pronunciation second so that his audience will know who he's talking about! He also has done some DVDs in German, although I don't know just how fluent he is.

Quote:
A German friend of mine said it was only recently that he realized English speaking people were talking about Koln when they said Cologne -- and my sincere appologies if I've just mispelled either of them.  Huh Grin

It's Köln, I'm afraid Wink

  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #22 - 09/16/11 at 11:05:15
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/16/11 at 08:36:26:
Which could explain why they introduced "Grand Prix Attack" for what was formerly named "Vinken System".
ROFL - In my early 20th I played the 70yo Vinken. He was a serious man [ironic]and doesn't deserve to be rebaptized "Grand Prix"[/ironic].

What's about Plattdütsch and Dutch - maybe it's that. But a common language in the described region is Friesian, still spoken by some hundred people in Germany and a little more in the Netherlands.

Back to Colle. As I would describe to an English speaker the pronounciation of the name as "college without the -ge sound" - how is it pronounced in Englisch? I really can't imagine anything else.
  

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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #21 - 09/16/11 at 08:36:26
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Names can be tricky, yes. Someone from the UK once corrected me when I mentioned Mike Basman. In my youth I listened more to Dutch pop music channels than to German radio, so it was a bit embarassing to misspeak "Zuidema". Somehow I thought he came from another country. 

DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 06:57:52:
Yes, English speaking people are constantly mispronouncing the names of people in other countries with names that would be unusual in either the UK, Canada, or the United States. We see it constantly in chess DVDs where people like Nigel Davies, and Andrew Martin give the name of one or both players and immediately appologize for having mispronounced either, [...]

Which could explain why they introduced "Grand Prix Attack" for what was formerly named "Vinken System".

DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 06:57:52:
-- BTW I had a discussion recently with that same German friend I mentioned earlier about the differences and differences of the Dutch and German languages. He mentioned there's a region at the northern part of the border where the two languages are very similar. The reason I'm interested in this is because I was wondering if, in the early 17th century, someone arriving in New Amsterdam (later New York) who was from what now would be Southern Germany be able speak pretty much the same language as the Dutch colonists. I know this totally off topic but any light shed on that would be greatly appreciated.

Very glad we've had this conversation.  Cool Smiley

My father spoke this Northern dialect, "Platt", which has much in common with Dutch. It was almost like a different language to me. In my father's generation it was common to speak both (standard) German and Platt, but if you go back to the 17th or 18th century the probability was high that someone from North Germany spoke mainly/only Platt on a daily basis; talking to someone from Bavaria might have been difficult. When I moved to Bavaria in 1991, I needed time to adapt - some Bavarians mix a lot of dialect into their language even when they think they are in German mode. So to your question: someone from Bavaria would have understood almost nothing of the Dutch spoken in New Amsterdam.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #20 - 09/16/11 at 06:57:52
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Okay, fair enough. No doubt the way Koltenowski pronounced the name is more accurate than the way someone in the United States would pronounce it from an English speaking viewpoint. -- And I'm sure he wasn't the exception, thank you.  Grin

All I was saying was that, at the time, and not having actually seen Colle spelled out, the way it was said sounded like college to me. I didn't write any of that to poke fun at George Koltenowski, nor to ever poke fun at anyone for an accent, only to mention that his English accent was thick enough to be awkward and Kolty himself, a person I've never heard a bad thing about, was gracious enough to find it humorous rather than being thin skinned, which would have been far easier. In any case his English was infinitely superior to my Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish, French, whatever, and no doubt he was at least conversant in numerous other languages, so I'm definitely not, and definitely wasn't poking fun at him.

The name Alekhine has a somewhat humorous history with me, or at least I think it's humorous. Sometime in the late 60s a Russian corrected my standard pronounciation of the name and assured me it should really be pronounced something like Aljekin. Over the decades it was revised by various other Russians I've known, for the most part Soviet GMs who came to live in New York. I've always accepted what they said on this (and most other things, I've always liked them) as being indesputable. Recently I was talking with a much younger Russian Grandmaster and I asked him something about Alekhine's Defense. He gave me a puzzled look and asked what defense I was talking about. I said, "Your late countryman, Alexander Alekhine." He shook his head and pronounced it exactly the way it's spelled in English. I told him how I was told to say it by other Russians and he shook his head and said, "No, it's Alekhine in both Russian and English." At this point I guess it must be a regional difference. Names can be pronounced numerous ways even within the same country. The only important thing is that we all know who we're talking about.

Yes, English speaking people are constantly mispronouncing the names of people in other countries with names that would be unusual in either the UK, Canada, or the United States. We see it constantly in chess DVDs where people like Nigel Davies, and Andrew Martin give the name of one or both players and immediately appologize for having mispronounced either, or more likely both names and, of course, the same would be true in citing variations or even most place names. A German friend of mine said it was only recently that he realized English speaking people were talking about Koln when they said Cologne -- and my sincere appologies if I've just mispelled either of them.  Huh Grin

Good luck in talking to a Surinamese audience, hat's off to you. Personally I have more than enough trouble just trying to be understood by fellow Americans. As Winston Churchill put it, I won't attempt a direct quote from memory but it was something about Britons and Americans being separated by a common language.

-- BTW I had a discussion recently with that same German friend I mentioned earlier about the differences and differences of the Dutch and German languages. He mentioned there's a region at the northern part of the border where the two languages are very similar. The reason I'm interested in this is because I was wondering if, in the early 17th century, someone arriving in New Amsterdam (later New York) who was from what now would be Southern Germany be able speak pretty much the same language as the Dutch colonists. I know this totally off topic but any light shed on that would be greatly appreciated.

Very glad we've had this conversation.  Cool Smiley
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #19 - 09/16/11 at 05:38:57
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 04:41:20:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/15/11 at 22:47:03:
DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:04:57:
--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.


Koltanowski, who was born in Antwerp, probably knew how to pronounce the name of his strongest rival in Belgium, Colle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6SzN6UixDU


That isn't what I said, which would have just been ignorant (even implying that is pretty ignorant on your part). What I said was to an English audience the way he said it sounded a bit like Coll--eege. He used to pronounce Alekhine as Ale-kheen and listening to him as a person who only spoke English, on an early sixties television his accent could become confusing. He joked about it a lot during the show when the camera crew didn't understand some of his requests. George Koltanowsky lived a very long time, his accent probably became less of a barrier as he grew older but at that time it was very thick. I don't understand why you even wrote that antagonistic and senseless remark. Were even around in the early 60s? Did you ever see the show I'm talking about?

Ale-kheen seems about right, at least the second part. Koltanowski played a match against Colle, and if one plays a countryman for so many hours, usually one knows his name. But K. may have been an exception, of course. No, I haven't seen that TV show. But some English speakers are struggling with names like Schara-Hennig or Scheveningen or Steenwijk Variation or even Euwe, and Colle might simply have been another case. I am living near the Dutch border, but in talk with Dutch friends I erred often enough (e.g. "Zuidema"). I didn't doubt that Koltanowski had a thick accent. But I believe I could try to speak Surinamese and still get the occasional German name in a sentence right. 
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #18 - 09/16/11 at 05:18:42
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RdC wrote on 09/15/11 at 11:57:22:
Traditionally the Colle was recommended as an approach whereby you could play Bd3, N1d2, 0-0, Qe2, Re1 and then break out with e4. As such it could appeal to players who had difficulty finding a coherent plan in the opening moves.

The problem is that players of the Black pieces know what to expect and can try to seize and maintain the initiative with 3 .. c5 and 3 .. Bg4.

Theory writers then recommend approaches like 4 dxc5 against c5 and 4 h3 against Bg4. In both cases the moves are justified, but if as White you have to resort to "only" moves as early as move 4, then something is wrong, in this case unprovoked passive play with 3 e3.

I also noted that 4 c4 was quite OK against 3 .. c5 with a probable transposition back into any number of familiar positions. A weapon, I thought perhaps, for the player with a broad opening knowledge.

I've tried the Grunfeld approach myself 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d5 3 e3 g6 which was met with 4 b4. It looks bizarre but works reasonably well. Again not a conventional Colle position.


Have you read the Larsen - Zeuthen book Zoom 001? Their idea is to use the Catallan Opening and Gruenfeld Defense as the basis for an opening repertoire that always develops into similar middle game and endgame positions. It was out of print (in English at least) for a long time but is back now for something like $25. I began studying this book just before I stopped playing (over 20 years ago) and am planning to start on it again once I've got a working opening repertoire in place that can be built on. The Gruenfeld has always been one of my favorite openings and it's the first one I began working on during my comeback.

I agree completely with what you're saying about the Colle opening, in effect it's very limited and an opponent who is familiar with it will have an easy time sidestepping white's best lines.

I've always felt similarly about the Kings Indian Attack, which I see as the e-pawn cousin of the Colle; it's easy to learn, avoids most of the sharp lines an opponent might be booked up on, but has the drawback of being very limited. I used to play it once in a while because Fischer played it, but it wasn't something I ever felt particularly comfortable with. I'm getting the same feeling about the Colle.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #17 - 09/16/11 at 05:07:54
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Vass wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:29:05:
DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:04:57:
Just finished watching the Nigel Davies CD on the Colle and am watching his DVD on the Torre now.

I've known about this opening  since the early 60s* but have neither played nor been much interested in it till I started looking into the Torre Attack, Trompowsky, Versov, London, and Barry, and figured it would be a good idea to learn the Colle first. Not sure if I'll use it. Normally I open with the English but wanted to expand my openings a little.

I was looking at these openings only as variations that might be played against Black's 2) ... Nf6 and never intended to use them as white. After a little study I'm beginning to enjoy them as a group and am planning on using them myself now.

The Colle seemed like it would be good against much higher rated players as it would be hard for black to defeat. But I may be wrong; just started studying it, and the comments here remind me of why I didn't like it in the first place; it seemed too much like a counterpunching approach.

--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.

Sometimes strange things happen.. Your (black/white) approach somehow reminds me of my tries with Chigorin (as black) and Veresov (as white).. First I started to play Chigorin after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nc6 with some very good results.. Then suddenly it struck me "What if.." and started to play 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 as the first player..threatening the Veresov opening in a kind of Chigorin way with a move ahead..  Wink Of course, these two openings I play against some lower rated opponents..  Cool


I've found that happening a lot in my life. A very strong player told me early on to study what you'll play as black more intensely than what you'll play as white, naturally that's because you don't have that tempo to spare as black, but I think he also meant it in terms of ideas that are good for black have to be at least as good on the white side.

-- I'm still trying to find out who the weaker players would be in my case. I was an expert throughout the 80s, dropped to the 1950s, got married, and didn't play or study for the next 22 years or so. I've just recently gotten back into it and have no idea what the relative levels are today, and where I'd be in there after my absurdly long absense from the game. Luckily the study materials available today are vastly superior to what was available in the 70s and 80s. I find the videos to be especially helpful. In opening terms I'm watching videos first, then studying the openings out of books. The books themselves are also much superior to what was generally available over twenty years ago.

But, naturally, those same materials are available to everyone so I can only conclude the tournament players today must play on a much higher level than was the case when I was an expert.

Getting back to what to use against much weaker players, I'm definitely structuring a much different opening lineup to play against them, my reasoning is it's good to play against a wide variety than to limit oneself to a narrow one. I read somewhere that the old Soviet instructors used to start everyone off with the Ruy Lopez because it had so many facets that were relevant to other openings.

I used to play closed games in the 60s and 70s and made slow progress. After a 5 year layoff I came back playing e4 as white and the Sicilian against it as black with the King's Indian and Gruenfeld vs d4 as black. That was because I studied all of Bobby Fischer's games and was fashioning my own game after my less than perfect understanding of his. My rating shot up in a hurry, then remained around 2050 for five or six years before dropping, which coincided with my total withdrawal from chess for two decades.

It would seem unwise to me to come back playing sharp e4 openings and the Sicilian Defence as those who knew the evolved theory would have a huge advantage over me. So I worked on kings fianchetto openings for both sides. After a few months playing in tournament and serious unrated games I've found that I still do best in positions that lead to tactical complications.

In deciding which openings to play against various levels of chess players, I'm thinking now of using my old sharp repertoire against much lower rated players; it should be interesting to see what they come up with, and a good learning experience. Against stronger players I'm trying to find something less booked where I'd be on a more level playing field coming out of the gate. The openings being discussed in this area, with the Colle as the root studied but not what I'd actually play, seems a good choice -- the Veresov and similar openings are appearing to be a good fit.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #16 - 09/16/11 at 04:46:57
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MNb wrote on 09/16/11 at 01:13:58:
Weren't Kolty's parents from Poland or something? A Polish child learning Dutch on the streets of Antwerp (a dialect neither the Dutch nor the rest of the Belgians understand) could result in some remarkable pronunciations.
Actually I have no idea how good Kolty's Dutch was.


Interesting. Having lived most of my life in NYC during decades of very many European new arrivals I grew up hearing a huge spectrum of pronunciations, but I found Koltanowsky's to be, at times, one of the harder accents to understand, especially when it came to names. As I said earlier, he was aware of this himself and could joke about it.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #15 - 09/16/11 at 04:41:20
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/15/11 at 22:47:03:
DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:04:57:
--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.


Koltanowski, who was born in Antwerp, probably knew how to pronounce the name of his strongest rival in Belgium, Colle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6SzN6UixDU


That isn't what I said, which would have just been ignorant (even implying that is pretty ignorant on your part). What I said was to an English audience the way he said it sounded a bit like Coll--eege. He used to pronounce Alekhine as Ale-kheen and listening to him as a person who only spoke English, on an early sixties television his accent could become confusing. He joked about it a lot during the show when the camera crew didn't understand some of his requests. George Koltanowsky lived a very long time, his accent probably became less of a barrier as he grew older but at that time it was very thick. I don't understand why you even wrote that antagonistic and senseless remark. Were even around in the early 60s? Did you ever see the show I'm talking about?
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #14 - 09/16/11 at 01:13:58
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Weren't Kolty's parents from Poland or something? A Polish child learning Dutch on the streets of Antwerp (a dialect neither the Dutch nor the rest of the Belgians understand) could result in some remarkable pronunciations.
Actually I have no idea how good Kolty's Dutch was.
  

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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #13 - 09/15/11 at 22:47:03
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:04:57:
--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.

Koltanowski, who was born in Antwerp, probably knew how to pronounce the name of his strongest rival in Belgium, Colle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6SzN6UixDU
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #12 - 09/15/11 at 11:57:22
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Traditionally the Colle was recommended as an approach whereby you could play Bd3, N1d2, 0-0, Qe2, Re1 and then break out with e4. As such it could appeal to players who had difficulty finding a coherent plan in the opening moves.

The problem is that players of the Black pieces know what to expect and can try to seize and maintain the initiative with 3 .. c5 and 3 .. Bg4.

Theory writers then recommend approaches like 4 dxc5 against c5 and 4 h3 against Bg4. In both cases the moves are justified, but if as White you have to resort to "only" moves as early as move 4, then something is wrong, in this case unprovoked passive play with 3 e3.

I also noted that 4 c4 was quite OK against 3 .. c5 with a probable transposition back into any number of familiar positions. A weapon, I thought perhaps, for the player with a broad opening knowledge.

I've tried the Grunfeld approach myself 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d5 3 e3 g6 which was met with 4 b4. It looks bizarre but works reasonably well. Again not a conventional Colle position.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #11 - 09/15/11 at 10:29:05
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/15/11 at 10:04:57:
Just finished watching the Nigel Davies CD on the Colle and am watching his DVD on the Torre now.

I've known about this opening  since the early 60s* but have neither played nor been much interested in it till I started looking into the Torre Attack, Trompowsky, Versov, London, and Barry, and figured it would be a good idea to learn the Colle first. Not sure if I'll use it. Normally I open with the English but wanted to expand my openings a little.

I was looking at these openings only as variations that might be played against Black's 2) ... Nf6 and never intended to use them as white. After a little study I'm beginning to enjoy them as a group and am planning on using them myself now.

The Colle seemed like it would be good against much higher rated players as it would be hard for black to defeat. But I may be wrong; just started studying it, and the comments here remind me of why I didn't like it in the first place; it seemed too much like a counterpunching approach.

--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.

Sometimes strange things happen.. Your (black/white) approach somehow reminds me of my tries with Chigorin (as black) and Veresov (as white).. First I started to play Chigorin after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nc6 with some very good results.. Then suddenly it struck me "What if.." and started to play 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 as the first player..threatening the Veresov opening in a kind of Chigorin way with a move ahead..  Wink Of course, these two openings I play against some lower rated opponents..  Cool
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #10 - 09/15/11 at 10:04:57
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Just finished watching the Nigel Davies CD on the Colle and am watching his DVD on the Torre now.

I've known about this opening  since the early 60s* but have neither played nor been much interested in it till I started looking into the Torre Attack, Trompowsky, Versov, London, and Barry, and figured it would be a good idea to learn the Colle first. Not sure if I'll use it. Normally I open with the English but wanted to expand my openings a little.

I was looking at these openings only as variations that might be played against Black's 2) ... Nf6 and never intended to use them as white. After a little study I'm beginning to enjoy them as a group and am planning on using them myself now.

The Colle seemed like it would be good against much higher rated players as it would be hard for black to defeat. But I may be wrong; just started studying it, and the comments here remind me of why I didn't like it in the first place; it seemed too much like a counterpunching approach.

--* I first saw it on an old TV show, Koltenowsky On Chess, which was basically George Koltenowsky sitting on a large chair (more of a thone) showing games on a small display board. Very primitive but he was enjoyable to watch. He'd exchange comments with the cameramen, usually joking about them being unable to understand his accent, which was so thick  I thought he was calling thise [i]The College Opening[/i]. Can't find the series on DVD anywhere, a pity because I think people would enjoy it even today.
  
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