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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Starting Out: The Colle Question (Read 30833 times)
DoubleRipVanWinkle
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #39 - 09/22/11 at 11:03:12
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In his DVD on the Queen's Gambit Declined (confusingly labelled Queen's Gambit -- presumably a later DVD will go into the Queen's Gambit Accepted) Gary Kasparov says throughout that the opening has/had a reputation for having been played out and a bit boring. He ends by saying forget about boring openings, unsound openings, there are only openings and anything else is what the player puts in to the ones he's using.

-- I was going to post earlier that I've come to the conclusion that the Colle would be a good opening against a young, impatient player when I saw that Stefan had pretty much written that same idea. So, in the course of this thread I've gone full circle from thinking this would be a safe line to play against a much higher rated player, or someone needing a win as black, to thinking it might be a good choice against an all out attacking player who might try to push too soon, or to take advantage of a weakness that just isn't there.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #38 - 09/20/11 at 12:58:19
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MNb wrote on 09/20/11 at 01:22:58:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/19/11 at 15:46:33:
maybe one of those booklets in Dutch language on the Closed Sicilian

Boersma in his 1983 booklet indeed attaches the name of Vinken to 2.Nc3 and 3.f4. Pachman in his 1986 edition of Moderne Schachtheorie doesn't. I would like to see more games of Vinken, especially with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6.


Silly me. I was about to respond to this as if it had something to do with the Colle (1.d4 d5). Embarrassed
  
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MNb
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #37 - 09/20/11 at 01:22:58
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/19/11 at 15:46:33:
maybe one of those booklets in Dutch language on the Closed Sicilian

Boersma in his 1983 booklet indeed attaches the name of Vinken to 2.Nc3 and 3.f4. Pachman in his 1986 edition of Moderne Schachtheorie doesn't. I would like to see more games of Vinken, especially with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 g6.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #36 - 09/19/11 at 17:17:51
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Kaissiber 3 had an article on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Bd3 c5 5.c3 by Stefan Ottow. I liked it and contributed a few tactical ideas for White, e.g. in Colle - O'Hanlon, the game with the "Greek" sacrifice. And in Koltanowski - O'Hanlon, another case where O'Hanlon was floored by the same trick. Equally fascinating was Kashdan - H. Steiner, "queenside majority". I was surprised how many ideas had been overlooked in older books.

But the planned follow-up article with strong lines against solid defences like g6 & Bg7 or against the Bf5 set-up hasn't appeared. So I guess it is fair to claim that Black can still hope for equality. - Gerard scores about 65% with the Colle. It is a good weapon in games which you don't have to win at all costs. But it can also be very efficient against over-aggressive Black players (like me). 
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #35 - 09/19/11 at 16:03:47
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Stefan, you show a game against a 9-year old who forgot to protect his king?

Ok, agreed. White can win in the Colle. But I'm sure even you'll agree that it's unambitious and a poor choice unless white only wants a draw. Even then, it's probably not the best way to play for a draw as White.

It is interesting though, that White scores well after 9.e4 de4?!

If Black knows not to rush this exchange, he scores well. But at least there's a hint of venom in the position.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #34 - 09/19/11 at 15:46:33
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MNb wrote on 09/16/11 at 14:18:45:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 09/16/11 at 08:36:26:
Which could explain why they introduced "Grand Prix Attack" for what was formerly named "Vinken System".

Actually I have seen the name "Vinken System" only in Dutch sources. What's more, I only know games by Alex Vinken beginning with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 d5 5.Bb5.
So despite me loving to dispute American-English claims in opening nomenclature I have to give in that they are right here.

True, I'd mainly associate Bb5 with "Vinken System", but the sources which I remember - definitely in Schach-Archiv of the late 1960s, maybe the Euwe series, and maybe one of those booklets in Dutch language on the Closed Sicilian - often gave lines with Bc4, too. With the GPA it was similar, only the other way around: those guys preferred to have the bishop on c4, but GPA works usually consider Bb5 as well. Sometimes as an emergency solution to avoid critical lines, but still.

I am not sure, but around 1967 the editor of Schach-Archiv may already have been Ludek Pachman. The name "Vinken System" certainly wasn't limited to the Netherlands. I believe "Vinken System" was mentioned in many German chess sources, but it never gained the later popularity of the GPA which mainly aimed at Bc4 with immediate attacks. It was not the only name that was blasted away by the English Chess Explosion. (I am using the name GPA myself, but some knowledge of chess history doesn't hurt.)

The Colle System deserves respect. Gerard Welling knows this innocuous looking concept with many sharp ideas particularly well. He doesn't play it in every game, but his opponents should better prepare for it, just in case...

  
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DoubleRipVanWinkle
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #33 - 09/19/11 at 15:35:50
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Grin Exactly, Agropop. I came in discussing an opening I was only interested in playing against and instead find myself receiving an education about things that, last week, I hardly knew existed, but this week I'm glad to be learning about.  Cool

MNb, great links as always. Seems no place today is particularly tranquil. It's always interesting to me how religions that should be serving a positive role much more often tend to turn people against each other.

I think there's going to be a lot more tension in the coming decades as a result of overcrowding and possession of fertile land and most of all good water sources. Actually, that's putting it as blandly as possible; the general expectation is those things will be the cause of major upcoming wars.
  
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #32 - 09/19/11 at 14:28:31
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A thread about the colle could only end like this.
(Just joking, in fact is an interesting one  Wink).
  
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MNb
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #31 - 09/19/11 at 12:23:39
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/19/11 at 05:55:04:
I remember journalists admitting on the air that they didn't know where South Molucca was. No doubt forty years later it's gone back into comfortable obscurity

On a more or less regular base there have been serious riots on the South Moluccans between christians and moslims.

http://pacificaffairs.ubc.ca/pdfs/bertrand.pdf

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/09/14/after-riots-stillness-pervades-amb...

I know about rumours that the Indonesian Army has been involved, directly or indirectly. As far as I know there is no conclusive evidence, but given their reputation on Timor and Papua I would not be surprised.
The riots have a lot to do with Indonesian demographic policy. Java is overpopulated, so "emigration" to the Moluccans and Papua is stimulated. Of course it's very convenient that those emigrants will not support local separatism.
  

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DoubleRipVanWinkle
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #30 - 09/19/11 at 05:55:04
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Smyslov_Fan "Staying equally off-topic ..."  Grin I kept trying to think of something more to say about the Colle, but can't.  Roll Eyes Thanks for mentioning the article, interesting thing to look into.

MNb Thanks for the links and, yes, I've been busted, when your country came up here I thought Suriname was in Equatorial Africa, somewhere near Sudan.  Shocked

-- When the Patty Hurst kidnapping happened publicizing a group calling itself The Simbianese Liberation Army I went running to an encylopedia to find Simbia.  

-- And when that tragic passenger train hostage murdering event happened in Holland involving a former Dutch colony on the other side of the world from us (on that scale we're practically neighbors) I remember journalists admitting on the air that they didn't know where South Molucca was. No doubt forty years later it's gone back into comfortable obscurity and almost no one not living in the place would be able to locate it on a globe. In fact, I've got a fairly large globe to my right even as I write this and am looking at the Indonesia area, and can't see it anywhere.

-- Which is good, much less chance of the place being caught in today's global insanity.  Cheesy
  
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MNb
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #29 - 09/18/11 at 21:57:20
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This is an excellent article by NYT. Thanks to Peace Corps there are quite a few Americans in Suriname - the USA even have an embassy.

http://www.nospang.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9117:amerika...

Those National Geography pictures are beautiful indeed, but also a bit stereotypal. This won't be your first impression at arrival and your second neither, so to say.

US Army South (or whatever) doesn't forget Suriname either. I have had the pleasure to meet some American soldiers in my town.

http://www.dvidshub.net/news/74055/construction-nears-end-suriname#.TnZrpPr-qUM

But, despite Suriname's bad reputation, DEA is not interested in having an office here, despite a Surinamese offer.
So yes - there áre Americans who do know that Suriname is not in Africa or Asia.  Wink
  

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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #28 - 09/18/11 at 20:02:48
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Staying equally off-topic, there was an interesting piece in today's New York Times about Suriname's culture. (There was also one a few years ago in National Geographic that had some fantastic photos. That's probably also available online.)
  
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DoubleRipVanWinkle
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #27 - 09/18/11 at 06:31:29
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MNb Thanks for the links, I'm finding them very interesting and useful; didn't know about that great flood.  Some of the maps speculating on what will happen to the worlds coastlines as ocean and sea levels rise again are quite sobering. Some coastal areas and islands worldwide are already being swamped.

500,000 in one city sounds like a good pool for chess playing. During the 80s I became spoiled by playing in NYC and came to assume there would be a lot of chess players almost anywhere I'd move to in the U. S.. Once married and having moved something like 60 miles away to Central New Jersey I learned otherwise. I'd be able to walk to the beach and look across the harbor and see Brooklyn, but there were few if any tournament players in my local area, and no chess clubs.

I guess Central Forida has about the same population as your capital city, and a lot more chess activity, clubs and tournaments than the much more densely populated part of New Jersey I moved from.

Of course chess popularity per capita in the United States isn't comparable to many other countries. Even in NYC I eventually came to know all the regular weekend swiss players. The game was briefly popular when Fischer was world champion, but those days are long gone.
  
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MNb
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #26 - 09/16/11 at 21:44:09
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DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 16:24:54:
I realize you’ve got a relatively small population, around 500,000, but despite that is there a lot of chess activity?

Mainly in Paramaribo, where half of the population lives.

DoubleRipVanWinkle wrote on 09/16/11 at 16:24:54:
I know of Friesia from Medieval history as raiders of the English coast, I’m assuming these are the same people. So I find the comment about their language predating Dutch to be especially interesting.

It might be a bit more complicated.

Actually in Dutch history there might have been two people called Frisian:

http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/common-errors-7-the-frisians/

The Frisians being defeated by the Franks (Charlemagne being the last) it's sure they were independent in the 7th Century. The logical assumption is that they had their own language already, but there is no evidence.
How the province of Groningen came between the coreland of Frisia and East-Frisia (in what's now Germany) is one of the great mysteries of Dutch history. How West-Frisia (were my ancestors are from; it's in the province of North-Holland) became separated from the coreland is well known though: one of the biggest floods in the history of mankind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lucia's_flood

My uncle and aunt speak West-Frisian until today, but I don't. Being separated from the coreland the West-Frisian dialect has become entirely different from the Frisian language.
  

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DoubleRipVanWinkle
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Re: Starting Out: The Colle Question
Reply #25 - 09/16/11 at 16:24:54
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Stefan and Jupp,

Many thanks for the information about the Dutch/German dialects, Plattdütsch and Friesian, I’m sure that will prove to be very helpful to me.

Stefan, like yourself I’ve lived in different regions of my own country going back to the 60s, originally I was from New York. Forty-five or so years ago, when I first went to states other than the one I was raised in I found the local accents fairly difficult to understand. Over the years I’ve continued moving around and noticed in this last relocation, from New Jersey to Florida, that the accents, even of those who’ve lived here their entire lives, wasn’t nearly as distinct as it was when I last lived here (only 50 miles from where I am now). I spoke with a sociologist about this a few weeks ago and said it must have been the effect of so many people moving here from other states. She said the greater influence was so many decades of television. Over the course of time local accents have been influenced by what people hear on television shows, a sort of neutral English. That seems reasonable to me. I’ve long noticed that regional accents of actors in movies from the 30s and 40s are much more distinct than anything I hear today. I’m wondering if television has had a similar effect in Germany and other European nations.

Mnb,

I’d have known a little about Guyana, but learned some new info by looking up your own nation. I realize you’ve got a relatively small population, around 500,000, but despite that is there a lot of chess activity? I’ve found it varies greatly in different parts of the United States.

Your explanation of the dialect you speak reminds me of things a French friend many years ago told me about people in North America, mainly Canada and the US state Louisiana who speak French but because they’ve communities have been away from France for so many centuries it wouldn’t be easy for them to understand the language as it’s currently spoken in France itself, and of course the reverse is true.

I know of Friesia from Medieval history as raiders of the English coast, I’m assuming these are the same people. So I find the comment about their language predating Dutch to be especially interesting.

dfan,

I stand corrected.  Smiley  In any case I don’t think I can produce that special figure on my keyboard.

-- I’ve noticed GM Jim Pratchett is also very adept at properly pronouncing non-English names. I enjoy his videos very much, especially his side remarks which are often very amusing. He seems like a real character.
  
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