ah right

but actually one of my online opponents may have solved the problem for me in other way:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "Magellen"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Bh6!?

This is a nice idea; e.g.:

a) 12 Rxh5 Nf6 regains the pawn on e4.
b) 12 Bg2 h4 — and with the Rh8 concealed by the bishop, the further ...h4-h3 is annoying.
c) 12 Nc3 is met by 12...Bg7! and 13...Nc6 targeting d4.

But if White doesn't play Nc3 then Black can set up with ...Qe7, ...Nc6, ... Bd7 and ...0-0-0, when he seems to have no trouble at all.

It looks like I might have to play 12 Kc1, so as to defend the d-pawn by (12...Bg7) 13 f5 and 14 Nf4, but obviously White would rather develop the a1-rook before retreating the king.

breizatao wrote on 12/28/10 at 12:49:10:


which line are you talking about?

(obviously Black can't play 12...h4 in tsmenace-samurai)

Paul Cumbers wrote on 12/07/10 at 22:01:07:


Hi Paul

My assessment is currently on hold . It's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from such small data.

When I get a new Wagenbach tournament started I'll try this out as White and see what turns up

MNb wrote on 12/01/10 at 21:31:52:

I just had to check

The nearest I could find was:

[Event "Hoogovens"]
[Site "Beverwijk"]
[Date "1952"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Donner, Jan Hein"]
[Black "Kramer, Haije"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C29"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f4 d5 4. d3 Bb4 5. fxe5 Nxe4 6. dxe4 Bxc3+ 7. bxc3 Qh4+ 8. Ke2 Bg4+ 9. Nf3 dxe4 10. Qd4 Bh5 11. Ke3 Bxf3 12. gxf3 Qe1+ 13. Kf4 Qh4+ 14. Ke3 Qe1+ 15. Kf4 ½-½


MNb wrote on 12/01/10 at 21:31:52:

And you would be correct.

Returning to this:

1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5 4 Bc4 h4 5 Nc3 d6 6 d4 g5 7 e5 Bh6 8 0-0 h3!? 9 g3 Nc6 (Fournier), the following game ended in a draw:

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "samurai"]
[Result "½-½"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. Nc3 d6 6. d4 g5 7. e5 Bh6 8. 0-0 h3 9. g3 Nc6 10. exd6 cxd6 11. gxf4 gxf4 12. Kh1 Nf6 13. d5 Ne5 14. Qd4 Qb6 15. Bxf4 Qxd4 16. Bb5+ Ke7 17. Nxd4 Bxf4 18. Rxf4 Rg8 19. Be2 Rg2 20. Bf3 Rg6 21. Re1 Bd7 22. Nd1 Re8 23. Ne3 Kd8 24. Rg1 Reg8 25. Rxg6 Rxg6 26. Be2 Ng8 27. c4 Kc7 28. b3 Rf6 29. Rf1 Kb6 30. b4 Rxf1+ 31. Bxf1 Nf6 32. Ndf5 Bxf5 33. Nxf5 a5 34. a3 Ne4 35. Nxd6 axb4 36. axb4 Nxd6 37. c5+ Kc7 38. cxd6+ ½-½

On the other hand, I got crushed in this game (obviously I wasn't really playing Donner):

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010"]
[White "JHDonner"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ne5 d6 7. Nd3 f3 8. gxf3 Be7 9. Be3 Bxh4+ 10. Kd2 Bg5 11. f4 Be7 12. Nc3 f5 13. Bg2 c6 14. Qe2 Kd7 15. Rae1 Kc7 16. Kc1 fxe4 17. Nxe4 Qf8 18. d5 Bd7 19. f5 cxd5 20. Nc3 Nc6 21. Nxd5+ Kc8 22. N3f4 Bxf5 23. Nxh5 Bd7 24. Qc4 Qd8 25. Nb4 d5 26. Nxd5 Bd6 27. b4 Kb8 28. Bf4 Bxf4+ 29. Qxf4+ Kc8 30. Ng7 Rxh1 31. Rxh1 Nge7 32. Rh8 1-0

I always seem to get smashed when I play ...f7-f5 in the Wagenbach. In this case maybe it's not so bad if Black follows up with ...Bf5 (at move 17-18). Whereas after 19 f5! it was just dreadful.

TalJechin wrote on 07/14/10 at 13:12:46:


several reasons:

1) I don't play CW games as correspondence games.
2) I moved too quickly.
3) The win/draw was quite subtle and concerned a single tempo.

[Event "www.ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2010.??.??"]
[White "tsmenace"]
[Black "Aethelbald"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. Bc4 h4 5. d4 g5 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d5 Na5 8. Be2 Bg7 9. Qd3 d6 10. b4 g4 11. Nd2 h3 12. g3 f3 13. Bd1 Nf6 14. bxa5 Nd7 15. 0-0 Ne5 16. Qe3 c6 17. a6 bxa6 18. dxc6 Nxc6 19. Nb3 Rb8 20. Nd5 Bxa1 21. Nxa1 Be6 22. Nb3 Ne5 23. Nd4 Bxd5 24. exd5 Rb7 25. Nc6 (this turns out to be far more difficult than I'd anticipated) 25...Qb6 26. Nxe5 dxe5 27. c4 Qxe3+ 28. Bxe3 Rb2 29. Rf2 Rb1 30. Rd2 Kd7 31. Kf2 f5 32. c5 Rb4 33. a3 Rc4 34. Bb3 Rc3 35. Rb2 Rb8 36. Ba4+ Kc8 37. Bd7+ Kc7 38. Rxb8 Rc2+ 39. Kf1 Kxb8 40. Bxf5 Rxh2 41. Bxg4 Re2 42. Bg5 Rg2 43. Bxh3 Rxg3 44. d6 Rxg5 45. c6 Rg8 46. Kf2 Rf8 47. Bf1 e4 48. Bxa6?? Rc8! 49. Bb5 a6! ½-½

due to 50 c7+ Rxc7 51 dxc7+ Kxc7 52 Bxa6 Kb6 and White cannot make progress; whereas 48 Ke3 wins, e.g. 48...Rc8 49 c7+ Rxc7 50 dxc7+ Kxc7 51 Kxe4 Kb6 52 Kd4 Ka5 53 Kc3 Ka4 54 Kb2 etc.

Paul Cumbers wrote on 07/13/10 at 16:01:45:


Hi Paul

I'm playing the White side of 6...d6 7 e5 in my ChessWorld thematic tournament (mentioned above) and Black has gone 7...Bh6 8 0-0 h3 9 g3 Nc6 (see Fournier/Bücker above), probably following this very thread. It doesn't actually look too bad for Black.

As for 6...Nc6, what would you play after 7 d5 Na5 8 Be2 - ? I had this as White in my last CW thematic and gained a massive position (which I blundered to a draw right at the end).

Hadron wrote on 07/09/10 at 03:05:43:


you're right, it often is — but working out whether it is in any particular position depends on analysis