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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence (Read 32058 times)
Jonathan Tait
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #57 - 09/30/19 at 11:33:10
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bof wrote on 09/29/19 at 01:14:24:
What counts as a refutation here? Is a defence against the Kings Gambit considered to be refuted if White manages to equalise?


Not as much as that. A refutation would have to be a clear advantage by force. Though any advantage is notable, given that White has no advantage after 2 f4.
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #56 - 09/29/19 at 01:14:24
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/29/10 at 20:16:00:
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?

has anyone found a refutation yet? Smiley


What counts as a refutation here? Is a defence against the Kings Gambit considered to be refuted if White manages to equalise?
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #55 - 09/19/19 at 06:38:42
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no Wink
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #54 - 09/18/19 at 22:34:16
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/18/19 at 08:53:56:
10 Bc4 Bxg5 11 hxg5 Qe7 12 0-0 Be6 13 d5 Bc8 14 Qc3 Qe5 15 Qxe5+ dxe5 16 Nc3 is another nice line for White, swapping queens off a piece down!

That's it from me for now though. I'm not going to say any more at the moment, since the Wagenbach forms a chapter in a book I'm writing about disreputable openings for Black (with 1 e4 e5). I do have an idea, but I don't want it refuting before the book is finished Wink


You have an idea for Black? Let me guess. Is it 3...Qe7?
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #53 - 09/18/19 at 08:53:56
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10 Bc4 Bxg5 11 hxg5 Qe7 12 0-0 Be6 13 d5 Bc8 14 Qc3 Qe5 15 Qxe5+ dxe5 16 Nc3 is another nice line for White, swapping queens off a piece down!

That's it from me for now though. I'm not going to say any more at the moment, since the Wagenbach forms a chapter in a book I'm writing about disreputable openings for Black (with 1 e4 e5). I do have an idea, but I don't want it refuting before the book is finished Wink
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #52 - 09/17/19 at 22:06:19
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The best I could find for Black was 9...g3, but it seems to lead to a clear, probably winning, advantage for White.

In the continuation 9...d6, as in the "stem game", 10. Nc3 Be6 11. Bd3 seems very good for White indeed.

One interesting variation is 11...Bxg5 12. hxg5 Nd7 13. e5, mainly because as soon as I put in on the board, SF10 gave a winning advantage for White, whereas Lc0 only gave a small advantage. The reason seems to be that after 13...d5 14. Bg6+ Kf8 15. 0-0+ Kg7, SF10 finds the idea of playing Bd3, Ne2 followed by planting a rook on f6, whereas Lc0 takes time to appreciate Rf6.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #51 - 09/17/19 at 11:47:19
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So the Silverclaret Gambit has been known since 2008, right? If poor Silverclaret blew the attack on move 13, I'm sure I couldn't have done any better. I haven't even figured out how the Quote function works, much less how to play chess.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #50 - 09/17/19 at 09:49:36
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bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 23:39:52:
Thanks! Maybe 11.Bd3 is an earlier improvement. Among other things it keeps the option of kingside castling. Also 10.Bc4 seems to be a playable alternative to 10.Nc3.

Yes, they're probably both better.

Incidentally...

bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 01:37:00:
I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess

If I'm to credit you, I'll need to know your name Smiley
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #49 - 09/17/19 at 06:03:24
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I don't have any notes at hand right now, but my feeling when analyzing was that the position is better for White than it first might look. In many lines, Qe3 is a strong move, threatening e5 amongst many things. Interestingly, Stockfish seems to be a bit better to predict the best move than Lc0. The best I could find for Black was actually an unpleasant rook ending, which I suspect is lost or close to it. I'll try to post concrete lines later when I have access to my files.

But I think Bc4 is better than long castling. IIRC, against most Black's moves, White don't need to castle long, but goes short or at least keeps that option, as Bof points out.

Edit: Sorry, I wrote the post on my phone. Bc4 is obviously not good after ...Be6 (it was a variation where Black played ...g3 instead of ....Be6), but instead of 10. Nc3, just like bof mentioned. The point about long castling is still valid. White should wait with castling.
« Last Edit: 09/17/19 at 21:49:54 by fling »  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #48 - 09/16/19 at 23:39:52
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Thanks! Maybe 11.Bd3 is an earlier improvement. Among other things it keeps the option of kingside castling. Also 10.Bc4 seems to be a playable alternative to 10.Nc3. (Any opinions expressed are my computer's, not mine; I don't understand this game.)
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #47 - 09/16/19 at 15:31:22
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bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 01:37:00:
I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess, but when I PMed Jonathan Tait he informed me that he has faced it twice, winning both times because of inaccurate play by White.


Wholly incorrect play would be more accurate Wink. One game (from 2006) went 8...Be7 9 Bc4?? Bxg5 10 hxg5 Qxg5 and so on. The other was a bit more interesting...

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "silverclaret"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "46"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 f6 7. Bxf4 fxg5 8. Bxg5 Be7 9. Qd2 d6 10. Nc3 Be6 11. O-O-O Nd7 12. Bd3 Nf8 13. e5 d5 14. Na4 b6 15. b3 c6 16. Rhf1 Kd7 17. Rf2 Kc7 18. Rdf1 Nd7 19. Ba6 Bxg5 20. hxg5 Qe7 21. g6 Rd8 22. Kb2 Kb8 23. Qc3 c5 0-1

In this game 13 e5?? was just wrong; whereas 13 d5! Bf7 and then 14 e5 is probably winning for White. Naturally, I'm looking to improve earlier.
  

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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #46 - 09/16/19 at 04:31:25
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God Member = 500 posts

Yes, it's dumb.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #45 - 09/16/19 at 01:37:00
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I found the 1906 game in Colin Leach's booklet KGA: Allgaier and Kieseritzky. That game is now online, in the comments to this chess stack exchange post . . . oops, I see I'm not allowed to create links. Well, you can easily find it if you search the chess stack exchange for Wagenbach.

I guess the reason nobody looked at 8.Bxg5 for the first couple centuries (before 3...h5 was invented) was because it was preceded by two successive inferior moves: 5.Ng5 h5? 6.d4? Why dig deeper into 6.d4 when you've got 6.Bc4!

I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess, but when I PMed Jonathan Tait he informed me that he has faced it twice, winning both times because of inaccurate play by White.

I guess the computer evaluation means White has a big advantage at the machine vs machine or GM vs GM level. (Is that what "God Member" means? God Member = GM?) Down here at the fish vs fish level I guess the better/luckier player will win, whoever makes the next to last mistake. When I play White against the machine from that position, needless to say the machine always wins.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #44 - 09/15/19 at 15:06:52
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bof wrote on 09/15/19 at 14:11:15:
I know of two games with 8.hxg5, none with 8.Bxg5. (Jonathan, could you post your games in this line, or are they already posted in this thread or your blog?) The two 8.hxg5 games I know of, both by transposition from the Allgaier and both won by Black, are Cotter-Von Bruehl, London 1788, and Weiss-von Gompers, Vienna 1906.


The first game I have found, not the second one. Interesting. Maybe because Black won those, nobody has looked carefully at 8. Bxg5 until now? Is it your finding? I wonder if Black can survive. I had to dig deeper into this line to see. So far, I can't find a decent-looking defence for Black!
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #43 - 09/15/19 at 14:11:15
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I know of two games with 8.hxg5, none with 8.Bxg5. (Jonathan, could you post your games in this line, or are they already posted in this thread or your blog?) The two 8.hxg5 games I know of, both by transposition from the Allgaier and both won by Black, are Cotter-Von Bruehl, London 1788, and Weiss-von Gompers, Vienna 1906.
  
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