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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence (Read 69654 times)
TopNotch
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #61 - 05/05/20 at 20:10:46
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How come nobody's talking about Daniel King's latest Chessbase DVD - The King's Gambit for White?

I would have thought tongues would be wagging by now. Smiley
  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #60 - 05/05/20 at 10:33:16
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just discovered these two games in a TCEC download Shocked

[Event "TCEC Season 13 - Superfinal"]
[Date "2018.11.07"]
[Round "95.1"]
[White "Stockfish 18102108"]
[Black "Komodo 2155.00"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C34"]
[WhiteElo "3519"]
[BlackElo "3475"]
[PlyCount "84"]
[EventDate "2018.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 f6 7. Bxf4 fxg5 8. Bxg5 Be7 9. Qd2 Rh7 10. Nc3 Rg7 11. Bxe7 Qxe7 12. e5 Qe6 13. Bd3 Nc6 14. Nb5 d5 15. O-O Qh6 16. Qf2 Re7 17. c4 Be6 18. Bg6+ Kd7 19. Bf5 Bxf5 20. Qxf5+ Qe6 21. cxd5 Qxf5 22. Rxf5 Rae8 23. dxc6+ bxc6 24. Nc3 c5 25. Rd1 g3 26. Rxh5 Kc8 27. Ne4 cxd4 28. Rxd4 Rg7 29. Rd3 Rg4 30. Nxg3 Ne7 31. Rh7 Rc4 32. h5 Nc6 33. Nf5 Nxe5 34. Re7 Rxe7 35. Nxe7+ Kb7 36. Rb3+ Ka6 37. Kh2 Rh4+ 38. Rh3 Re4 39. h6 Ng4+ 40. Kg3 Nf6 41. Nd5 Nh7 42. Nf4 c6 1-0

[Event "TCEC Season 13 - Superfinal"]
[Date "2018.11.07"]
[Round "96.1"]
[White "Komodo 2155.00"]
[Black "Stockfish 18102108"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C34"]
[WhiteElo "3475"]
[BlackElo "3519"]
[PlyCount "93"]
[EventDate "2018.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 f6 7. Bxf4 fxg5 8. Bxg5 Be7 9. Qd2 Nf6 10. Nc3 Nh7 11. Bf4 d6 12. O-O-O O-O 13. Bc4+ Kh8 14. Bh6 Nc6 15. Nd5 Bd7 16. Kb1 Be8 17. a3 Rg8 18. e5 Rg6 19. Bf4 Bf8 20. Bg5 Nxg5 21. hxg5 Qxg5 22. Nxc7 Rd8 23. Nxe8 Rxe8 24. Bf7 Rd8 25. Bxg6 Qxg6 26. exd6 Bxd6 27. Qd3 Kg7 28. Qb3 b6 29. Rhf1 Rd7 30. Qb5 Rc7 31. Rh1 Qxc2+ 32. Ka2 Qg6 33. Rxh5 Bf4 34. Rhh1 Bg5 35. Ka1 Re7 36. d5 Nd8 37. d6 Re4 38. Rd5 Bf6 39. Ka2 Qe8 40. Qxe8 Rxe8 41. Rd2 Kg6 42. d7 Re4 43. Kb1 Kf7 44. Rf2 Re6 45. Rd2 Nc6 46. Ka2 Nd8 47. Rh7+ 1/2-1/2
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #59 - 02/23/20 at 12:05:46
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bof wrote on 02/23/20 at 09:53:22:

My computer thinks 14 e5 dxe5 15 Na3 is even better than 14 Qc3 etc. When is your book going on sale? I might buy a copy if it's not too pricey. What other bad openings are in it besides the Wagenbach?


Some time this year probably, as and when I've finished it.

And it'll be full of bad openings...

1 e4 e5 2 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Bc4 f5
1 e4 e4 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Qh4
1 e4 e4 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Nc3 Bc5
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 Ng5 d5 5 exd5 b5

and such like Wink
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #58 - 02/23/20 at 09:53:22
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/18/19 at 08:53:56:
10 Bc4 Bxg5 11 hxg5 Qe7 12 0-0 Be6 13 d5 Bc8 14 Qc3 Qe5 15 Qxe5+ dxe5 16 Nc3 is another nice line for White, swapping queens off a piece down!

That's it from me for now though. I'm not going to say any more at the moment, since the Wagenbach forms a chapter in a book I'm writing about disreputable openings for Black (with 1 e4 e5). I do have an idea, but I don't want it refuting before the book is finished Wink


My computer thinks 14 e5 dxe5 15 Na3 is even better than 14 Qc3 etc. When is your book going on sale? I might buy a copy if it's not too pricey. What other bad openings are in it besides the Wagenbach?
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #57 - 09/30/19 at 11:33:10
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bof wrote on 09/29/19 at 01:14:24:
What counts as a refutation here? Is a defence against the Kings Gambit considered to be refuted if White manages to equalise?


Not as much as that. A refutation would have to be a clear advantage by force. Though any advantage is notable, given that White has no advantage after 2 f4.
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #56 - 09/29/19 at 01:14:24
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 06/29/10 at 20:16:00:
1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 h5!?

has anyone found a refutation yet? Smiley


What counts as a refutation here? Is a defence against the Kings Gambit considered to be refuted if White manages to equalise?
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #55 - 09/19/19 at 06:38:42
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no Wink
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #54 - 09/18/19 at 22:34:16
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 09/18/19 at 08:53:56:
10 Bc4 Bxg5 11 hxg5 Qe7 12 0-0 Be6 13 d5 Bc8 14 Qc3 Qe5 15 Qxe5+ dxe5 16 Nc3 is another nice line for White, swapping queens off a piece down!

That's it from me for now though. I'm not going to say any more at the moment, since the Wagenbach forms a chapter in a book I'm writing about disreputable openings for Black (with 1 e4 e5). I do have an idea, but I don't want it refuting before the book is finished Wink


You have an idea for Black? Let me guess. Is it 3...Qe7?
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #53 - 09/18/19 at 08:53:56
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10 Bc4 Bxg5 11 hxg5 Qe7 12 0-0 Be6 13 d5 Bc8 14 Qc3 Qe5 15 Qxe5+ dxe5 16 Nc3 is another nice line for White, swapping queens off a piece down!

That's it from me for now though. I'm not going to say any more at the moment, since the Wagenbach forms a chapter in a book I'm writing about disreputable openings for Black (with 1 e4 e5). I do have an idea, but I don't want it refuting before the book is finished Wink
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #52 - 09/17/19 at 22:06:19
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The best I could find for Black was 9...g3, but it seems to lead to a clear, probably winning, advantage for White.

In the continuation 9...d6, as in the "stem game", 10. Nc3 Be6 11. Bd3 seems very good for White indeed.

One interesting variation is 11...Bxg5 12. hxg5 Nd7 13. e5, mainly because as soon as I put in on the board, SF10 gave a winning advantage for White, whereas Lc0 only gave a small advantage. The reason seems to be that after 13...d5 14. Bg6+ Kf8 15. 0-0+ Kg7, SF10 finds the idea of playing Bd3, Ne2 followed by planting a rook on f6, whereas Lc0 takes time to appreciate Rf6.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #51 - 09/17/19 at 11:47:19
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So the Silverclaret Gambit has been known since 2008, right? If poor Silverclaret blew the attack on move 13, I'm sure I couldn't have done any better. I haven't even figured out how the Quote function works, much less how to play chess.
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #50 - 09/17/19 at 09:49:36
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bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 23:39:52:
Thanks! Maybe 11.Bd3 is an earlier improvement. Among other things it keeps the option of kingside castling. Also 10.Bc4 seems to be a playable alternative to 10.Nc3.

Yes, they're probably both better.

Incidentally...

bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 01:37:00:
I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess

If I'm to credit you, I'll need to know your name Smiley
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #49 - 09/17/19 at 06:03:24
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I don't have any notes at hand right now, but my feeling when analyzing was that the position is better for White than it first might look. In many lines, Qe3 is a strong move, threatening e5 amongst many things. Interestingly, Stockfish seems to be a bit better to predict the best move than Lc0. The best I could find for Black was actually an unpleasant rook ending, which I suspect is lost or close to it. I'll try to post concrete lines later when I have access to my files.

But I think Bc4 is better than long castling. IIRC, against most Black's moves, White don't need to castle long, but goes short or at least keeps that option, as Bof points out.

Edit: Sorry, I wrote the post on my phone. Bc4 is obviously not good after ...Be6 (it was a variation where Black played ...g3 instead of ....Be6), but instead of 10. Nc3, just like bof mentioned. The point about long castling is still valid. White should wait with castling.
« Last Edit: 09/17/19 at 21:49:54 by fling »  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #48 - 09/16/19 at 23:39:52
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Thanks! Maybe 11.Bd3 is an earlier improvement. Among other things it keeps the option of kingside castling. Also 10.Bc4 seems to be a playable alternative to 10.Nc3. (Any opinions expressed are my computer's, not mine; I don't understand this game.)
  
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Re: C34: King's Gambit: Wagenbach Defence
Reply #47 - 09/16/19 at 15:31:22
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bof wrote on 09/16/19 at 01:37:00:
I stumbled onto 8.Bxg5 myself, kind of hoping it would go into the books as my one contribution to chess, but when I PMed Jonathan Tait he informed me that he has faced it twice, winning both times because of inaccurate play by White.


Wholly incorrect play would be more accurate Wink. One game (from 2006) went 8...Be7 9 Bc4?? Bxg5 10 hxg5 Qxg5 and so on. The other was a bit more interesting...

[Event "ChessWorld.net"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "silverclaret"]
[Black "tsmenace"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C34"]
[PlyCount "46"]
[EventDate "2008.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 h5 4. d4 g5 5. h4 g4 6. Ng5 f6 7. Bxf4 fxg5 8. Bxg5 Be7 9. Qd2 d6 10. Nc3 Be6 11. O-O-O Nd7 12. Bd3 Nf8 13. e5 d5 14. Na4 b6 15. b3 c6 16. Rhf1 Kd7 17. Rf2 Kc7 18. Rdf1 Nd7 19. Ba6 Bxg5 20. hxg5 Qe7 21. g6 Rd8 22. Kb2 Kb8 23. Qc3 c5 0-1

In this game 13 e5?? was just wrong; whereas 13 d5! Bf7 and then 14 e5 is probably winning for White. Naturally, I'm looking to improve earlier.
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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