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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 5. Bg5 in the KID? (Read 17744 times)
Stigma
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #34 - 09/13/11 at 20:46:38
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OrangeCounty wrote on 09/13/11 at 20:36:49:
I don't see where you're being stupid, unfortunately, which means I may have omitted a move pair.  Even more unfortunately, the computer that has my analysis on it was wiped and reinstalled a week ago, and I haven't replaced the data, which is on an external drive for storage.  Well, good reason for me to get on that.



Allright. But don't stress with it, it seems White should deviate somewhere anyway. When I looked at it briefly, Houdini even wanted to play 12.Bg5 instead of 12.g3.
  

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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #33 - 09/13/11 at 20:36:49
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I don't see where you're being stupid, unfortunately, which means I may have omitted a move pair.  Even more unfortunately, the computer that has my analysis on it was wiped and reinstalled a week ago, and I haven't replaced the data, which is on an external drive for storage.  Well, good reason for me to get on that.

  
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Stigma
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #32 - 09/13/11 at 18:40:55
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Always interested in new things to try against the KID, I've started looking at the analysis in this thread.

I have one question, sorry if I'm being stupid here. In this analysis by OrangeCounty I take it the move order is 4...d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.exf5 gxf5 10.Nge2 h5 (as in the NeverGiveUp-NN game) 11.h3 Nf6 12.g3 Na6 and so on as below. But then where exactly does Black castle? My computer won't allow me to put all these rooks on c8 later because the king is still in the way on e8.

OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 03:56:58:
On 10. Nge2, I think you opponent's play can be improved very early on.  on 12. g3 Na6! Black seems to have established equality; 13. Be3 Qe7! (13...Nc5 14 Qc2 - the point of 13...Qe7 is to win a tempo by misplacing the Queen since now 14 Qc2 Nb4!) 14. Qd2 Nc5 15. 0-0-0 Nce4 (Black takes over the initiative - I don't see a way for White to bail out) 16. Nxe4 Nxe4 17. Qc2 c6 18. Bg2 cxd5 19. cxd5 Bd7 20. Bxe4 Rac8 21. Nc3 b5! 22. Qb3 fxe4 23. Bxa7 (23. Qa3 Rc4!) and not 23...Qd8 24. Be3 Qa5 25. a3 Rc4 26. Kb1 Rfc8, which looks great but is just awful after 27. Na2!, but 23... b4! (yeah, I wanted to play 23....e3 24. Bxe3 e4  too... (because I play the KID but the best I found is the bad ending after 25. g4 Bxc3 26. bxc3 Rxc3 27. Qxc3 Rc8) 24. Qxb4 Bb5 25. Be3 Bd3 26. Rxd3 (!) exd3 27. Qe4 Qb7 and I'm spending too much time so I'll cop out with "unclear," but White looks like he could lose pretty fast, and the exchange should help despite the pawns.

Fascinating variation.  Going to keep digging.

  

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ErictheRed
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #31 - 09/08/11 at 03:21:55
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I can't really answer your question, as I only reach this position from the Saemisch move order.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #30 - 09/07/11 at 22:25:18
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@Eric:  I think we're arguing even less than you think.  I agree ...h6 is a weakness in the Benoni; that's why I advocated playing c7-c5 without kicking the bishop first!  And if you've got this as part of your repertoire, I'll certainly take another look before dismissing d4-d5 (after ...h6) as harmless-ish.  One question: Do you hold the same opinion of the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Bg5 0-0 6. f3 c5, or would you vary at move 6 to avoid the immediate transposition to the Samisch?  (Not trying to bilk your analysis, I'm curious, so a yes/no and maybe a sentence is great).

@Nevergiveup: Looks like you have a few promising ideas.  I believe Bologan's analysis of the pawn sacrifice is useful for finding possible ways for White to play for advantage.

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #29 - 09/07/11 at 16:46:30
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OrangeCounty wrote on 09/07/11 at 16:02:00:
Gallagher (in '04) basically used Dreev games for his whole section on the Samisch, but he still came to the conclusion that Black was alright.  I'm not disputing your claim of a White advantage, I've just always found Black's position easy to play.  White can't really stop Black from getting a Benoni-style position where all of White's critical tries have already gone by the wayside.  Certainly f3 and Bg5/Be3 ideas are known in the Benoni, but they aren't what keep Black up nights.



Well chess is a game of clashing ideas, and we all have different backgrounds.  That's what makes it great.  Still, with the "free" move ...h7-h5 for Black before White has sent his Knight to g3, I think White's position is very pleasant and somewhere between +/= and +/-, honestly.  Most authors discussing this from Black's point of view dismiss it as a minor sideline, concentrating on 6.Be3.  But those Kingside weaknesses are real.  Incidentally, I'd recommend Yusupov's and Sadler's games over Dreev for this precise line.

Anyway we're almost off topic, but don't think you can follow Bologan and be prepared for White's best ideas.  He follows Sadler - Fedorovic, 1988 as his main line with Ernst - Tal, 1987 in the notes.  Believe me, a lot has happened since then!  This is still a cornerstone of my repertoire that I have a HUGE score with (2 draws with an IM and wins in every other game over the last couple of years), so I'm not going to divulge specifics.  I just think it's an area where White has a definite edge if you do the research.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #28 - 09/07/11 at 16:02:00
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/06/11 at 17:55:22:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


With the transposition to the Saemisch mentioned above, I suggest 8.d5 and playing like they did back in the 90s; in my opinion, this is still good for a White edge (though not a huge one).  Modern books really haven't treated it with any respect, either.  For instance, Bologan's treatment of this line is laughable and doesn't take into account any of White's best plans (see old games of Yusupov, Dreev, Sadler, and others).


Gallagher (in '04) basically used Dreev games for his whole section on the Samisch, but he still came to the conclusion that Black was alright.  I'm not disputing your claim of a White advantage, I've just always found Black's position easy to play.  White can't really stop Black from getting a Benoni-style position where all of White's critical tries have already gone by the wayside.  Certainly f3 and Bg5/Be3 ideas are known in the Benoni, but they aren't what keep Black up nights.

If I got the position mentioned by Nevergiveup, I'd be tempted to take the c5 pawn and see if the slight weakness on h6 meant anything after 8 dxc5 dxc5 9 Qxd8 Rxd8 10 Bxc5 Nc6 11 Nh3 Nd7 (11...Bxh3 certainly wouldn't be my first thought, but maybe it suffices; Black will attempt to blockade at f4.) 12 Be3.  I would think that a tempo to play ...h5 when necessary, or else the threat of an eventual N or Bxh6 would be significant in the pawn sac line.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #27 - 09/06/11 at 17:55:22
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


With the transposition to the Saemisch mentioned above, I suggest 8.d5 and playing like they did back in the 90s; in my opinion, this is still good for a White edge (though not a huge one).  Modern books really haven't treated it with any respect, either.  For instance, Bologan's treatment of this line is laughable and doesn't take into account any of White's best plans (see old games of Yusupov, Dreev, Sadler, and others).
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #26 - 09/06/11 at 16:35:11
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Any takers for 6. Bh4?

7...c5 seems to score very well, but at least we aren't allowing ...Ng4.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #25 - 08/24/11 at 20:22:06
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 12:32:12:
derdudea wrote on 08/20/11 at 22:14:11:
In a corrchess game I had to face 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 c5 and neither 8.dxc5 nor 8.d5 were satisfying.
After 8.d5 Bd4 9.Nh3 e5! is strong and after
8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Qxd8 Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3! 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nc6 13.f4 (Sokolov-Berg 2009) Golubevs suggestion 13...Kc7! is a huge improvement, making White the one to fight for equality.

For corrchess use, the line is not acceptable at the moment.


I looked at this a bit and saw that Sololov is 2669 and Berg is 2610 - so surely these guys must know what they're doing!
Sokolov has actually played dc5: more than once with white and has done good shop with it.
To me it seems hard to believe that one move 13. ... Kc7 would make all the difference. Strategically white is doing quite all right here I would say with the bishop's pair and pressure along the d and f files. White's doubled pawns are hard to attack here so could constitute a strength rather than a weakness. I'm currently working my way through Sokolov's excellent book Winning Chess Middlegames and it will be interesting to see what he says about this pawn formation.


I thought so, too, and followed Sokolov, which could not be a bad idea general. But chess these days, especially using engines in ICCF - tournaments, is very concrete.

Derdudea (2277) - Campant (2425) WS/MN/060 ICCF 2010
1.d4 Sf6 2.c4 g6 3.Sc3 Lg7 4.e4 d6 5.Lg5 h6 6.Le3 Sg4 7.Lc1 c5 8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Dxd8+ Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3+ 11.bxc3 Sf6 12.Ld3 Sc6 13.f4 Kc7 14.Sf3 Td8 15.Lb1 Le6 16.f5 gxf5 17.exf5 Lxc4 18.Lxh6 b5 19.Kf2 a5 20.Le3 Sd5 21.Tc1 Sxe3 22.Kxe3 e6 23.f6 Ld5 24.Le4 Th8 25.a4 bxa4 26.Txa4 Tag8 27.Lxd5 exd5 28.Kf2 c4 29.Td1 Th5 30.g4 Txh3 31.Txd5 Txg4 32.Sd4 Sxd4 33.Txc4+ ½–½

Golubev recommended against 13...Kc7 14.f5 but here again Black is at least equal: 14....g5  15.h4 Se5 16.Le2 Ld7 17.Sf3 Seg4 18.hxg5 hxg5 19.Txh8 Txh8 20.Sxg5 Th1+ 21.Kd2 Lc6 22.Lf3 Se5 23.Ke3 Sxc4+ 24.Kf2 Se5 25.Lb2 Txa1

It wasn´t necessary to allow White to place his rook on d5 as in the game Sokolov-Berg. Without that, White has nothing.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #24 - 08/24/11 at 16:12:38
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


I'll comment on the specifics when I have access to a computer with a database and so on, but if faced with 5. Bg5, I again view 5...h6 and 6...0-0 as suboptimal.  If Black is going to play c7-c5, rather than going in for ...Ng4, ....e5, and ...f5 immediately, he should leave the bishop alone, because ...h6 isn't a good move to have played with White's transpositional options still open.  (It also avoids the pawn sacrifice, which I understand is no longer considered a safe line for Black... see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299671539/19#19

Again, the bishop on g5 isn't really threatening anything yet, so there's no need to kick it.  g5 isn't necessarily its best square in a Benoni setup (not that e3 is either) and Black can comfortably develop and decide whether it needs to go later.  Note that the Benoni ...e6 allows ...h6 even after White's Qd2, by opening the diagonal for the Nxe4/Qh4 trick.

[As an aside, g5 is almost certainly the wrong square for the bishop in a Benko.]
  
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NeverGiveUp
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #23 - 08/24/11 at 12:32:12
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derdudea wrote on 08/20/11 at 22:14:11:
In a corrchess game I had to face 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 c5 and neither 8.dxc5 nor 8.d5 were satisfying.
After 8.d5 Bd4 9.Nh3 e5! is strong and after
8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Qxd8 Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3! 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nc6 13.f4 (Sokolov-Berg 2009) Golubevs suggestion 13...Kc7! is a huge improvement, making White the one to fight for equality.

For corrchess use, the line is not acceptable at the moment.


I looked at this a bit and saw that Sololov is 2669 and Berg is 2610 - so surely these guys must know what they're doing!
Sokolov has actually played dc5: more than once with white and has done good shop with it.
To me it seems hard to believe that one move 13. ... Kc7 would make all the difference. Strategically white is doing quite all right here I would say with the bishop's pair and pressure along the d and f files. White's doubled pawns are hard to attack here so could constitute a strength rather than a weakness. I'm currently working my way through Sokolov's excellent book Winning Chess Middlegames and it will be interesting to see what he says about this pawn formation.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #22 - 08/24/11 at 08:27:37
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 17:53:12:
Edit:

I'm going to assume 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Nge2, because 9. Nge2 allows f5-f4 when - whether White castles Kingside or not (and he won't) - Black has a nice attack on the Kingside, and enough squares to comfortably connect his rooks.

Yes I prefer taking on f5 first so it should be 10.Nge2 - sorry about this.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #21 - 08/24/11 at 08:25:27
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 23:45:27:
One reason, and not the only one, to always meet the Samisch by ...c5 and not ...e5, although by this move order perhaps there is reason to try ...e5 (mostly that you can play ...e5, and respond to ...d5 by ...f5 since you have already moved the knight from f6.)  If I was inclined to avoid this, the next option would be to omit ...h6 and play 5...0-0 and 6...c5 against almost any White 6th move.  Getting a Benoni while avoiding both the MML and Taimanov is just good as far as I'm concerned (as a former Benoni player by the Benoni move order).

Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.
7.h3!? is interesting and tranposes to a favorable version of the 5.h3 line.
[7.Be2 transposes to the Averbach where black is quite allright by playing e5.] 
After 5.Bg5 c5 6.d5 h6 white can go 7.Bf4! with the idea Bd3, Nge2, h3 keeping the pressure on d6 and the better game. I think this is an idea of Larsen.
And finally after 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 0-0 white can go (a) 8.f3 Nf6 9.Be3; (b) 8.h3!? Nf6 9.Be3; (c) 8.Be2!? Nf6 9.f4 leading to a four pawns attack where again black will not be overly happy having played h6.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #20 - 08/23/11 at 23:45:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/23/11 at 15:18:14:
It's probably better for Black to defend the h-pawn by playing ...h6-h5, but then he doesn't have the standard ...Nf6-h5, ...f7-f5 plan anymore.  You often just end up with a normal Saemisch position where Black would never have played the move ...h5 if the pawn had started on h7!  I think these positions, but with the pawn on h7, were covered quite nicely in Chris Ward's book The Controversial Saemisch King's Indian.  In all lines I think the "extra" move ...h6 hurts Black.  In related Benoni-type positions I think it's often fine, but not here.


One reason, and not the only one, to always meet the Samisch by ...c5 and not ...e5, although by this move order perhaps there is reason to try ...e5 (mostly that you can play ...e5, and respond to ...d5 by ...f5 since you have already moved the knight from f6.)  If I was inclined to avoid this, the next option would be to omit ...h6 and play 5...0-0 and 6...c5 against almost any White 6th move.  Getting a Benoni while avoiding both the MML and Taimanov is just good as far as I'm concerned (as a former Benoni player by the Benoni move order).
  
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