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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 5. Bg5 in the KID? (Read 17741 times)
Stigma
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #34 - 09/13/11 at 20:46:38
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OrangeCounty wrote on 09/13/11 at 20:36:49:
I don't see where you're being stupid, unfortunately, which means I may have omitted a move pair.  Even more unfortunately, the computer that has my analysis on it was wiped and reinstalled a week ago, and I haven't replaced the data, which is on an external drive for storage.  Well, good reason for me to get on that.



Allright. But don't stress with it, it seems White should deviate somewhere anyway. When I looked at it briefly, Houdini even wanted to play 12.Bg5 instead of 12.g3.
  

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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #33 - 09/13/11 at 20:36:49
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I don't see where you're being stupid, unfortunately, which means I may have omitted a move pair.  Even more unfortunately, the computer that has my analysis on it was wiped and reinstalled a week ago, and I haven't replaced the data, which is on an external drive for storage.  Well, good reason for me to get on that.

  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #32 - 09/13/11 at 18:40:55
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Always interested in new things to try against the KID, I've started looking at the analysis in this thread.

I have one question, sorry if I'm being stupid here. In this analysis by OrangeCounty I take it the move order is 4...d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.exf5 gxf5 10.Nge2 h5 (as in the NeverGiveUp-NN game) 11.h3 Nf6 12.g3 Na6 and so on as below. But then where exactly does Black castle? My computer won't allow me to put all these rooks on c8 later because the king is still in the way on e8.

OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 03:56:58:
On 10. Nge2, I think you opponent's play can be improved very early on.  on 12. g3 Na6! Black seems to have established equality; 13. Be3 Qe7! (13...Nc5 14 Qc2 - the point of 13...Qe7 is to win a tempo by misplacing the Queen since now 14 Qc2 Nb4!) 14. Qd2 Nc5 15. 0-0-0 Nce4 (Black takes over the initiative - I don't see a way for White to bail out) 16. Nxe4 Nxe4 17. Qc2 c6 18. Bg2 cxd5 19. cxd5 Bd7 20. Bxe4 Rac8 21. Nc3 b5! 22. Qb3 fxe4 23. Bxa7 (23. Qa3 Rc4!) and not 23...Qd8 24. Be3 Qa5 25. a3 Rc4 26. Kb1 Rfc8, which looks great but is just awful after 27. Na2!, but 23... b4! (yeah, I wanted to play 23....e3 24. Bxe3 e4  too... (because I play the KID but the best I found is the bad ending after 25. g4 Bxc3 26. bxc3 Rxc3 27. Qxc3 Rc8) 24. Qxb4 Bb5 25. Be3 Bd3 26. Rxd3 (!) exd3 27. Qe4 Qb7 and I'm spending too much time so I'll cop out with "unclear," but White looks like he could lose pretty fast, and the exchange should help despite the pawns.

Fascinating variation.  Going to keep digging.

  

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ErictheRed
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #31 - 09/08/11 at 03:21:55
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I can't really answer your question, as I only reach this position from the Saemisch move order.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #30 - 09/07/11 at 22:25:18
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@Eric:  I think we're arguing even less than you think.  I agree ...h6 is a weakness in the Benoni; that's why I advocated playing c7-c5 without kicking the bishop first!  And if you've got this as part of your repertoire, I'll certainly take another look before dismissing d4-d5 (after ...h6) as harmless-ish.  One question: Do you hold the same opinion of the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Bg5 0-0 6. f3 c5, or would you vary at move 6 to avoid the immediate transposition to the Samisch?  (Not trying to bilk your analysis, I'm curious, so a yes/no and maybe a sentence is great).

@Nevergiveup: Looks like you have a few promising ideas.  I believe Bologan's analysis of the pawn sacrifice is useful for finding possible ways for White to play for advantage.

  
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ErictheRed
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #29 - 09/07/11 at 16:46:30
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OrangeCounty wrote on 09/07/11 at 16:02:00:
Gallagher (in '04) basically used Dreev games for his whole section on the Samisch, but he still came to the conclusion that Black was alright.  I'm not disputing your claim of a White advantage, I've just always found Black's position easy to play.  White can't really stop Black from getting a Benoni-style position where all of White's critical tries have already gone by the wayside.  Certainly f3 and Bg5/Be3 ideas are known in the Benoni, but they aren't what keep Black up nights.



Well chess is a game of clashing ideas, and we all have different backgrounds.  That's what makes it great.  Still, with the "free" move ...h7-h5 for Black before White has sent his Knight to g3, I think White's position is very pleasant and somewhere between +/= and +/-, honestly.  Most authors discussing this from Black's point of view dismiss it as a minor sideline, concentrating on 6.Be3.  But those Kingside weaknesses are real.  Incidentally, I'd recommend Yusupov's and Sadler's games over Dreev for this precise line.

Anyway we're almost off topic, but don't think you can follow Bologan and be prepared for White's best ideas.  He follows Sadler - Fedorovic, 1988 as his main line with Ernst - Tal, 1987 in the notes.  Believe me, a lot has happened since then!  This is still a cornerstone of my repertoire that I have a HUGE score with (2 draws with an IM and wins in every other game over the last couple of years), so I'm not going to divulge specifics.  I just think it's an area where White has a definite edge if you do the research.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #28 - 09/07/11 at 16:02:00
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/06/11 at 17:55:22:
NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


With the transposition to the Saemisch mentioned above, I suggest 8.d5 and playing like they did back in the 90s; in my opinion, this is still good for a White edge (though not a huge one).  Modern books really haven't treated it with any respect, either.  For instance, Bologan's treatment of this line is laughable and doesn't take into account any of White's best plans (see old games of Yusupov, Dreev, Sadler, and others).


Gallagher (in '04) basically used Dreev games for his whole section on the Samisch, but he still came to the conclusion that Black was alright.  I'm not disputing your claim of a White advantage, I've just always found Black's position easy to play.  White can't really stop Black from getting a Benoni-style position where all of White's critical tries have already gone by the wayside.  Certainly f3 and Bg5/Be3 ideas are known in the Benoni, but they aren't what keep Black up nights.

If I got the position mentioned by Nevergiveup, I'd be tempted to take the c5 pawn and see if the slight weakness on h6 meant anything after 8 dxc5 dxc5 9 Qxd8 Rxd8 10 Bxc5 Nc6 11 Nh3 Nd7 (11...Bxh3 certainly wouldn't be my first thought, but maybe it suffices; Black will attempt to blockade at f4.) 12 Be3.  I would think that a tempo to play ...h5 when necessary, or else the threat of an eventual N or Bxh6 would be significant in the pawn sac line.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #27 - 09/06/11 at 17:55:22
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


With the transposition to the Saemisch mentioned above, I suggest 8.d5 and playing like they did back in the 90s; in my opinion, this is still good for a White edge (though not a huge one).  Modern books really haven't treated it with any respect, either.  For instance, Bologan's treatment of this line is laughable and doesn't take into account any of White's best plans (see old games of Yusupov, Dreev, Sadler, and others).
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #26 - 09/06/11 at 16:35:11
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Any takers for 6. Bh4?

7...c5 seems to score very well, but at least we aren't allowing ...Ng4.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #25 - 08/24/11 at 20:22:06
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 12:32:12:
derdudea wrote on 08/20/11 at 22:14:11:
In a corrchess game I had to face 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 c5 and neither 8.dxc5 nor 8.d5 were satisfying.
After 8.d5 Bd4 9.Nh3 e5! is strong and after
8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Qxd8 Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3! 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nc6 13.f4 (Sokolov-Berg 2009) Golubevs suggestion 13...Kc7! is a huge improvement, making White the one to fight for equality.

For corrchess use, the line is not acceptable at the moment.


I looked at this a bit and saw that Sololov is 2669 and Berg is 2610 - so surely these guys must know what they're doing!
Sokolov has actually played dc5: more than once with white and has done good shop with it.
To me it seems hard to believe that one move 13. ... Kc7 would make all the difference. Strategically white is doing quite all right here I would say with the bishop's pair and pressure along the d and f files. White's doubled pawns are hard to attack here so could constitute a strength rather than a weakness. I'm currently working my way through Sokolov's excellent book Winning Chess Middlegames and it will be interesting to see what he says about this pawn formation.


I thought so, too, and followed Sokolov, which could not be a bad idea general. But chess these days, especially using engines in ICCF - tournaments, is very concrete.

Derdudea (2277) - Campant (2425) WS/MN/060 ICCF 2010
1.d4 Sf6 2.c4 g6 3.Sc3 Lg7 4.e4 d6 5.Lg5 h6 6.Le3 Sg4 7.Lc1 c5 8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Dxd8+ Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3+ 11.bxc3 Sf6 12.Ld3 Sc6 13.f4 Kc7 14.Sf3 Td8 15.Lb1 Le6 16.f5 gxf5 17.exf5 Lxc4 18.Lxh6 b5 19.Kf2 a5 20.Le3 Sd5 21.Tc1 Sxe3 22.Kxe3 e6 23.f6 Ld5 24.Le4 Th8 25.a4 bxa4 26.Txa4 Tag8 27.Lxd5 exd5 28.Kf2 c4 29.Td1 Th5 30.g4 Txh3 31.Txd5 Txg4 32.Sd4 Sxd4 33.Txc4+ ½–½

Golubev recommended against 13...Kc7 14.f5 but here again Black is at least equal: 14....g5  15.h4 Se5 16.Le2 Ld7 17.Sf3 Seg4 18.hxg5 hxg5 19.Txh8 Txh8 20.Sxg5 Th1+ 21.Kd2 Lc6 22.Lf3 Se5 23.Ke3 Sxc4+ 24.Kf2 Se5 25.Lb2 Txa1

It wasn´t necessary to allow White to place his rook on d5 as in the game Sokolov-Berg. Without that, White has nothing.
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #24 - 08/24/11 at 16:12:38
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/24/11 at 08:25:27:
Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.


I'll comment on the specifics when I have access to a computer with a database and so on, but if faced with 5. Bg5, I again view 5...h6 and 6...0-0 as suboptimal.  If Black is going to play c7-c5, rather than going in for ...Ng4, ....e5, and ...f5 immediately, he should leave the bishop alone, because ...h6 isn't a good move to have played with White's transpositional options still open.  (It also avoids the pawn sacrifice, which I understand is no longer considered a safe line for Black... see http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299671539/19#19

Again, the bishop on g5 isn't really threatening anything yet, so there's no need to kick it.  g5 isn't necessarily its best square in a Benoni setup (not that e3 is either) and Black can comfortably develop and decide whether it needs to go later.  Note that the Benoni ...e6 allows ...h6 even after White's Qd2, by opening the diagonal for the Nxe4/Qh4 trick.

[As an aside, g5 is almost certainly the wrong square for the bishop in a Benko.]
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #23 - 08/24/11 at 12:32:12
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derdudea wrote on 08/20/11 at 22:14:11:
In a corrchess game I had to face 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 c5 and neither 8.dxc5 nor 8.d5 were satisfying.
After 8.d5 Bd4 9.Nh3 e5! is strong and after
8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Qxd8 Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3! 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nc6 13.f4 (Sokolov-Berg 2009) Golubevs suggestion 13...Kc7! is a huge improvement, making White the one to fight for equality.

For corrchess use, the line is not acceptable at the moment.


I looked at this a bit and saw that Sololov is 2669 and Berg is 2610 - so surely these guys must know what they're doing!
Sokolov has actually played dc5: more than once with white and has done good shop with it.
To me it seems hard to believe that one move 13. ... Kc7 would make all the difference. Strategically white is doing quite all right here I would say with the bishop's pair and pressure along the d and f files. White's doubled pawns are hard to attack here so could constitute a strength rather than a weakness. I'm currently working my way through Sokolov's excellent book Winning Chess Middlegames and it will be interesting to see what he says about this pawn formation.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #22 - 08/24/11 at 08:27:37
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 17:53:12:
Edit:

I'm going to assume 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Nge2, because 9. Nge2 allows f5-f4 when - whether White castles Kingside or not (and he won't) - Black has a nice attack on the Kingside, and enough squares to comfortably connect his rooks.

Yes I prefer taking on f5 first so it should be 10.Nge2 - sorry about this.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #21 - 08/24/11 at 08:25:27
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 23:45:27:
One reason, and not the only one, to always meet the Samisch by ...c5 and not ...e5, although by this move order perhaps there is reason to try ...e5 (mostly that you can play ...e5, and respond to ...d5 by ...f5 since you have already moved the knight from f6.)  If I was inclined to avoid this, the next option would be to omit ...h6 and play 5...0-0 and 6...c5 against almost any White 6th move.  Getting a Benoni while avoiding both the MML and Taimanov is just good as far as I'm concerned (as a former Benoni player by the Benoni move order).

Right guys we're moving on - I've had 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 c5 a couple of times. This is a critical line where black goes for Kasparov's pawn sac on c5 which is not very good for white to accept. Again the question here is if white can take advantage of black's premature h6. I think I would go 8.Nge2 Nc6 9.Qd2 attacking h6. White can still play d5 later if he likes transposing to a regular d5 type position but with black having to play h5 so limiting black's possibilities.
7.h3!? is interesting and tranposes to a favorable version of the 5.h3 line.
[7.Be2 transposes to the Averbach where black is quite allright by playing e5.] 
After 5.Bg5 c5 6.d5 h6 white can go 7.Bf4! with the idea Bd3, Nge2, h3 keeping the pressure on d6 and the better game. I think this is an idea of Larsen.
And finally after 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 0-0 white can go (a) 8.f3 Nf6 9.Be3; (b) 8.h3!? Nf6 9.Be3; (c) 8.Be2!? Nf6 9.f4 leading to a four pawns attack where again black will not be overly happy having played h6.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #20 - 08/23/11 at 23:45:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/23/11 at 15:18:14:
It's probably better for Black to defend the h-pawn by playing ...h6-h5, but then he doesn't have the standard ...Nf6-h5, ...f7-f5 plan anymore.  You often just end up with a normal Saemisch position where Black would never have played the move ...h5 if the pawn had started on h7!  I think these positions, but with the pawn on h7, were covered quite nicely in Chris Ward's book The Controversial Saemisch King's Indian.  In all lines I think the "extra" move ...h6 hurts Black.  In related Benoni-type positions I think it's often fine, but not here.


One reason, and not the only one, to always meet the Samisch by ...c5 and not ...e5, although by this move order perhaps there is reason to try ...e5 (mostly that you can play ...e5, and respond to ...d5 by ...f5 since you have already moved the knight from f6.)  If I was inclined to avoid this, the next option would be to omit ...h6 and play 5...0-0 and 6...c5 against almost any White 6th move.  Getting a Benoni while avoiding both the MML and Taimanov is just good as far as I'm concerned (as a former Benoni player by the Benoni move order).
  
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OrangeCounty
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #19 - 08/23/11 at 17:53:12
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/23/11 at 08:15:24:
OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 03:56:58:
Now at home with a database:

Looks like Sokolov mostly played 9. Be2, not 10. Be2; this forces a knight retreat without h2-h3, which I would think is a win for White.  On the other hand, 9. Be2 has a 50% score in my database.  Make of that what you will (9. exf5 is indeed impressive in scoring: 90%).  Chesslive has two games from Anna Sharevich, both losses for White, in 2011.

On 10. Nge2, I think you opponent's play can be improved very early on.  on 12. g3 Na6! Black seems to have established equality; 13. Be3 Qe7! (13...Nc5 14 Qc2 - the point of 13...Qe7 is to win a tempo by misplacing the Queen since now 14 Qc2 Nb4!) 14. Qd2 Nc5 15. 0-0-0 Nce4 (Black takes over the initiative - I don't see a way for White to bail out) 16. Nxe4 Nxe4 17. Qc2 c6 18. Bg2 cxd5 19. cxd5 Bd7 20. Bxe4 Rac8 21. Nc3 b5! 22. Qb3 fxe4 23. Bxa7 (23. Qa3 Rc4!) and not 23...Qd8 24. Be3 Qa5 25. a3 Rc4 26. Kb1 Rfc8, which looks great but is just awful after 27. Na2!, but 23... b4! (yeah, I wanted to play 23....e3 24. Bxe3 e4  too... (because I play the KID but the best I found is the bad ending after 25. g4 Bxc3 26. bxc3 Rxc3 27. Qxc3 Rc8) 24. Qxb4 Bb5 25. Be3 Bd3 26. Rxd3 (!) exd3 27. Qe4 Qb7 and I'm spending too much time so I'll cop out with "unclear," but White looks like he could lose pretty fast, and the exchange should help despite the pawns.

Fascinating variation.  Going to keep digging.


You're right Sokolov's move should be 9.Be2 not 10.Be2 - as said I find 9.Nge2 much better.

Your analysis sounds familiar - I have been looking at this line quite some time ago (remember I've been playing this line for 25 years!) and when I look at your line I'm sure white should avoid going Qd2 because it allows Nc5-e4 with gain of tempo and indeed very good play for black (as per your analysis). The Queen has to go to c2. So white should either play Qc2 allowing Nb4, or play a different move like Bg2. I can't remember by the top of my head what my computer made of it, but it should be something along these lines.


Oh... do you mean 9. Nge2 with the pawn still at e4?  I focused on 10. Nge2.  (By the way, I think I found your game in Chesslive.de - grats.)

I'll go back and look at White's alternatives to 14. Qd2 and 14. Qc2; I may have gotten too excited by the attractiveness of 13...Qe7 and missed something White could do other than get castled on the Queenside.

(One thing that's certain is that Gallagher - in Play the KID -  dismisses this line too quickly.  He gives it one model game and a dismissive "bad reputation," even though he cites the "Sokolov" line (9. Be2 Nf6 10. exf5 gxf5 11. Bh5+ Nxh5 12. Qxh5+ Kf8) as equal.  I also regret my "poor option" comment in my initial response!  Having looked at this, it is far from trivial and deserves probably more attention than it receives; maybe Bologan knew this as well.)

Edit:

I'm going to assume 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Nge2, because 9. Nge2 allows f5-f4 when - whether White castles Kingside or not (and he won't) - Black has a nice attack on the Kingside, and enough squares to comfortably connect his rooks.
« Last Edit: 08/24/11 at 02:35:06 by OrangeCounty »  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #18 - 08/23/11 at 15:38:10
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John Watson once gave 8...0-0 9. f3 Nf6 10. Be3 Nh5 as "also possible" and cited a game in which Black got "good counterplay," but I can't say I would be surprised if White should be able to get an edge.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #17 - 08/23/11 at 15:18:14
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 08/23/11 at 08:24:49:
And a question to you guys (KID specialists, I suppose!). In a tournament last year I had a game 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 0-0 9.f3 Nf6 10.Be3. This is just a main line Saemisch with the extra move h6 for black. Since no black plays like this I played rather dodgy and got into trouble (the game ended in a draw). What would be a good way for white to exploit the h6 weakness in this variation?


I'm very familiar with these types of positions from the Saemisch move order.  White should have a pleasant advantage.  Basically, you are going to play Qd2 and win a tempo at some point because Black will have to defend his pawn on h6 (though not necessarily immediately, as there are X.Bxh6 Nxe4! tricks if White's King is on e1). 

The standard plan is to castle Queenside and then combine playing on the Queenside (Kb1, Rc1, c4-c5, etc) with gaining space on the Kingside (h2-h4, g2-g4).  Note that you don't have to "attack" Black on the Kingside, but gaining space there can be quite useful. 

If Black defended his pawn with ...Kh7 earlier, it allows him to meet a future h4-h5 push with ...g6-g5, keeping the Kingside closed.  However, this is usually still desirable for White, as Black's dark-squared Bishop is now terrible and Black can create no counterplay on the Kingside, so White is free to break through on the Queenside at his leisure.  I played one nice game where I actually walked my King from b1 all the way over the Kingside, I think it was 4 King moves in a row, and by the time my King walk was over I was completely winning (lines opening on the Queenside and no King caught in the crossfire).  Still, White can often play Ka1 and push b2-b4, c4-c5, or something similar, and have no problems with his King.

It's probably better for Black to defend the h-pawn by playing ...h6-h5, but then he doesn't have the standard ...Nf6-h5, ...f7-f5 plan anymore.  You often just end up with a normal Saemisch position where Black would never have played the move ...h5 if the pawn had started on h7!  I think these positions, but with the pawn on h7, were covered quite nicely in Chris Ward's book The Controversial Saemisch King's Indian.  In all lines I think the "extra" move ...h6 hurts Black.  In related Benoni-type positions I think it's often fine, but not here.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #16 - 08/23/11 at 08:24:49
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And a question to you guys (KID specialists, I suppose!). In a tournament last year I had a game 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 0-0 9.f3 Nf6 10.Be3. This is just a main line Saemisch with the extra move h6 for black. Since no black plays like this I played rather dodgy and got into trouble (the game ended in a draw). What would be a good way for white to exploit the h6 weakness in this variation?
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #15 - 08/23/11 at 08:15:24
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/23/11 at 03:56:58:
Now at home with a database:

Looks like Sokolov mostly played 9. Be2, not 10. Be2; this forces a knight retreat without h2-h3, which I would think is a win for White.  On the other hand, 9. Be2 has a 50% score in my database.  Make of that what you will (9. exf5 is indeed impressive in scoring: 90%).  Chesslive has two games from Anna Sharevich, both losses for White, in 2011.

On 10. Nge2, I think you opponent's play can be improved very early on.  on 12. g3 Na6! Black seems to have established equality; 13. Be3 Qe7! (13...Nc5 14 Qc2 - the point of 13...Qe7 is to win a tempo by misplacing the Queen since now 14 Qc2 Nb4!) 14. Qd2 Nc5 15. 0-0-0 Nce4 (Black takes over the initiative - I don't see a way for White to bail out) 16. Nxe4 Nxe4 17. Qc2 c6 18. Bg2 cxd5 19. cxd5 Bd7 20. Bxe4 Rac8 21. Nc3 b5! 22. Qb3 fxe4 23. Bxa7 (23. Qa3 Rc4!) and not 23...Qd8 24. Be3 Qa5 25. a3 Rc4 26. Kb1 Rfc8, which looks great but is just awful after 27. Na2!, but 23... b4! (yeah, I wanted to play 23....e3 24. Bxe3 e4  too... (because I play the KID but the best I found is the bad ending after 25. g4 Bxc3 26. bxc3 Rxc3 27. Qxc3 Rc8) 24. Qxb4 Bb5 25. Be3 Bd3 26. Rxd3 (!) exd3 27. Qe4 Qb7 and I'm spending too much time so I'll cop out with "unclear," but White looks like he could lose pretty fast, and the exchange should help despite the pawns.

Fascinating variation.  Going to keep digging.


You're right Sokolov's move should be 9.Be2 not 10.Be2 - as said I find 9.Nge2 much better.

Your analysis sounds familiar - I have been looking at this line quite some time ago (remember I've been playing this line for 25 years!) and when I look at your line I'm sure white should avoid going Qd2 because it allows Nc5-e4 with gain of tempo and indeed very good play for black (as per your analysis). The Queen has to go to c2. So white should either play Qc2 allowing Nb4, or play a different move like Bg2. I can't remember by the top of my head what my computer made of it, but it should be something along these lines.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #14 - 08/23/11 at 03:56:58
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Now at home with a database:

Looks like Sokolov mostly played 9. Be2, not 10. Be2; this forces a knight retreat without h2-h3, which I would think is a win for White.  On the other hand, 9. Be2 has a 50% score in my database.  Make of that what you will (9. exf5 is indeed impressive in scoring: 90%).  Chesslive has two games from Anna Sharevich, both losses for White, in 2011.

On 10. Nge2, I think you opponent's play can be improved very early on.  on 12. g3 Na6! Black seems to have established equality; 13. Be3 Qe7! (13...Nc5 14 Qc2 - the point of 13...Qe7 is to win a tempo by misplacing the Queen since now 14 Qc2 Nb4!) 14. Qd2 Nc5 15. 0-0-0 Nce4 (Black takes over the initiative - I don't see a way for White to bail out) 16. Nxe4 Nxe4 17. Qc2 c6 18. Bg2 cxd5 19. cxd5 Bd7 20. Bxe4 Rac8 21. Nc3 b5! 22. Qb3 fxe4 23. Bxa7 (23. Qa3 Rc4!) and not 23...Qd8 24. Be3 Qa5 25. a3 Rc4 26. Kb1 Rfc8, which looks great but is just awful after 27. Na2!, but 23... b4! (yeah, I wanted to play 23....e3 24. Bxe3 e4  too... (because I play the KID but the best I found is the bad ending after 25. g4 Bxc3 26. bxc3 Rxc3 27. Qxc3 Rc8) 24. Qxb4 Bb5 25. Be3 Bd3 26. Rxd3 (!) exd3 27. Qe4 Qb7 and I'm spending too much time so I'll cop out with "unclear," but White looks like he could lose pretty fast, and the exchange should help despite the pawns.

Fascinating variation.  Going to keep digging.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #13 - 08/22/11 at 18:26:16
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That's very interesting.  it still seems like Black must have some way to complicate things, since he's achieved f7-f5 with tempo and has at least a shot at the e4 square, but I guess the Kingside situation is sufficiently problematic to at least balance the chances.

Quoted line from my proposed 10...h5: "11. h3 Nf6 12. g3 Nbd7 13. Be3 Nf8 14. Qc2 Bd7 15.O-O-O a6 16. f4 e4 17. Nd4 c5 18. dxc6 bxc6 19. c5 d5 20. Na4 Ng6 21. Nb6 Ra7."  (before that 10...0-0 planning 11. h3 Nh6 might be interesting; f6 is left for the other knight's use and this overprotects the f5 pawn).

Black's play looks a bit compliant in the game.  I would probably play ...Na6 instead of 12...Nbd7, planning to play ...Nc5 at some point, but keeping the Bc8 eyeing the f5 pawn/square.  I'll do some real analysis tonight.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #12 - 08/22/11 at 17:44:11
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Hmmm, I've played the Saemish with 6.Bg5 forever, so I might start playing 5.Bg5 after looking at this thread.  There seems to be some potential here...thanks, guys!  You've given me some interesting ideas.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #11 - 08/22/11 at 09:37:50
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/19/11 at 23:07:10:
(re: "Critical is 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.ef5: gf5: where I've come up with the improvement 10.Nge2(!) 0-0 11.h3 Nf6 12.Ng3 and black is in trouble since Bd3 is coming. ": Does 10...h5 change the evaluation?  White certainly isn't threatening the king, and h5-h4 is certainly the thematic response to an early Nge2-g3 in the Samisch...  I simply cannot believe that Black can obtain a position with exf5-gxf5 where White has played three bishop moves to return to c1 and d4-d5 and Black is somehow worse...  I'm not looking at a board let alone an engine, but...)


No, 10. ... h5 does not resolve black's problems.

NeverGiveUp-NN:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Bg5 h6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bc1 e5 8. d5 f5 9. exf5 gxf5 10. Nge2 h5 11. h3 Nf6 12. g3 Nbd7 13. Be3 Nf8 14. Qc2 Bd7 15.O-O-O a6 16. f4 e4 17. Nd4 c5 18. dxc6 bxc6 19. c5 d5 20. Na4 Ng6 21. Nb6 Ra7
22. Be2 Ne7 23. Rdf1 Kf7 24. Rhg1 Be6 25. Qd2 Qc7 26. g4 hxg4 27. hxg4 Rb7 28.gxf5 Bxf5 29. Rg5 Bh3 30. Rh1 Bd7 31. Rxh8 Bxh8 32. Qe1 Ng6 33. Qg3 Nf8 34. Qh4 N8h7 35. Bh5+ Kf8 36. Bg6 Bc8 37. Nxc8 Nxg5 38. Qxh8+ Ng8 39. Bf5 Nf7 40. Ne6+ 1-0

Apperently white has lost several tempi with the strange looking Bc1-g5-e3-c1 but what has black "gained"? He has played h6 and Ng4 - h6 is a rather serious weakening of the kings side and the Ng4 is going to be kicked back with h3. The main line goes 10.Nge2 0-0 11.h3 Nf6 12.Ng3 a5 13.Bd3 and now black has to play the ugly 13. ... Nh7 where white can go 14.Nh5 Na6 15.Ng7: Kg7: 16.Qh5 with the better game.

10.Nge2 is an important improvement upon Sokolov's 10.Be2 which I used to play; black is doing reasonably well here after 10. ... Nf6 11.Bh5+ Nh5: 12.Qh5:+ Kf8 followed by Qe8. The game above shows there is a plan "B" for white - instead of Ng3 he can also go g3 and Be3 with castling Queenside and a later f4 and g4 to come. 10. ... h5 has the serious disadvantage for black that kings side castling is out of the question, and I consider it just another weakening of black's kings side.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #10 - 08/20/11 at 22:14:11
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[quote author=5F6A670B0 link=1277895315/8#8 date=1313751748
Critical is 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.ef5: gf5: where I've come up with the improvement 10.Nge2(!) 0-0 11.h3 Nf6 12.Ng3 and black is in trouble since Bd3 is coming.
[/quote]

In a corrchess game I had to face 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 c5 and neither 8.dxc5 nor 8.d5 were satisfying.
After 8.d5 Bd4 9.Nh3 e5! is strong and after
8.dxc5 dxc5 9.Qxd8 Kxd8 10.h3 Lxc3! 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Bd3 Nc6 13.f4 (Sokolov-Berg 2009) Golubevs suggestion 13...Kc7! is a huge improvement, making White the one to fight for equality.

For corrchess use, the line is not acceptable at the moment.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #9 - 08/19/11 at 23:07:10
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After 5. Bg5 you can't get to e3 lines because your fourth move was e4.  This is a decent line for White, but the cost of the flexibility with the f pawn, king's knight, and king's bishop is committing the Bg5 to its square pretty early.  There are a lot of Samisch lines where Black plays h6 to kick a bishop back to e3 even with f3 played, I wouldn't think that the option of ...Ng4 makes this a poor option, but certainly the better prepared player would have good chances.

(re: "Critical is 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.ef5: gf5: where I've come up with the improvement 10.Nge2(!) 0-0 11.h3 Nf6 12.Ng3 and black is in trouble since Bd3 is coming. ": Does 10...h5 change the evaluation?  White certainly isn't threatening the king, and h5-h4 is certainly the thematic response to an early Nge2-g3 in the Samisch...  I simply cannot believe that Black can obtain a position with exf5-gxf5 where White has played three bishop moves to return to c1 and d4-d5 and Black is somehow worse...  I'm not looking at a board let alone an engine, but...)
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #8 - 08/19/11 at 11:02:28
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derdudea wrote on 06/30/10 at 10:55:15:
Searching for a new line against the KID for a 1600 - 2100 level, which ideally would be an aggressive sideline denying Black his preparation and some of his fun attacking my king, I consulted Bologan´s repertoire book for Black. Chapter 4 is about the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Sc3 d6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Bg5.

Bologan´s evaluation of this line sounds like an advertisement for White:
"This move looks rather simple and straightforward, but it requires from Black a good opening preparation and a precise play. The idea behind the move for White is to either provoke h6 and then to transpose into a favourable line from the Saemisch attack, or to consolidate the bishop on g5 after Qd2 and this would be in principle rather unpleasant for Black". You will soon notice in our book that Ivan Sokolov is one of its main exponents and he is famous for being a very aggressive White player".

18 pages on a rare sideline show Bologan´s interest in the line and the chapter contains so many different black moves, that you can use parts of it even for a White repertoire. Bologans seems to be interested in analysing Black´s weaker responses to point out typical mistakes and shows, that a lot of natural moves, starting with 5...Nbd7?! lead to a White advantage and even in the line 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 he needs a novelty and some home analysis to find equality for Black.

In the quite natural main line 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 c5 7.d5  Bologan makes 7....b5! (Bologan) his repertoire choice. I would be very surprised if many King´s Indian fans in the above mentioned ELO - range would use a Benkö-like pawn sacrifice as their weapon against a line so rarely played.
And without such aggressive counterplay, White´s chances to reach the above mentioned strategic goal, and further on after castling long a quick kingside attack, seem not bad.

What are your experiences with this line? Are there any good sources on it?


I actually have been playing this line for something like 25 years now and started before Sokolov! Over the years I have gradually build it up into a flexible system which is quite difficult to meet for black. I decide my final setup depending on black's reply.

For quite a lot of replies I go into a Nge2 Saemisch, like 5. ... h6 6.Be3 0-0 7.f3 which is just a regular Saemisch with black having played h6, seriously weakening his kings side.

Critical is 5. ... h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 e5 8.d5 f5 9.ef5: gf5: where I've come up with the improvement 10.Nge2(!) 0-0 11.h3 Nf6 12.Ng3 and black is in trouble since Bd3 is coming.

I've had a few games 5. ... 0-0 6.Qd2! e5?? 6.de5: de5: 7.Qd8: Rd8: 8.Bf6: Bf6: 9.Nd5 and white wins - one game went 9. ... Bg5 10.Nf3 and black resigned!

If black wants to go e5 he should prepare with Nbd7 but then going into the Saemisch with Ne2 is favorable for white, say 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 Nbd7 7.Nge2 e5 8.f3.

After 5. ... 0-0 6.Qd2 c5 7.d5 e6 I go 8.Be2 going into a main line of the Averback system which is quite favorable for white. In teh past I've also played 8.Ne2 which is interesting but less good.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #7 - 08/27/10 at 13:06:10
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Isn't this the beginning of the Averbach ( followed by Be2) or the Smyslov ( followed by e3) lines in the KID?
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #6 - 07/12/10 at 18:32:28
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Quote:
I am playing this variation at a CC game
1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. d4 Nf6 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Bg5 c5 7. d5 b5 8. cxb5 a6 9. a4 Qa5 10. Bd2
But I notice that white has 65% at least at my old (big 2004) database, maybe to play another variation is better?

I remember a notice from GM Grivas  saying that there is the plan Nge2 and f3 for white and this wins.
I thing that with this variation white can play this plan so if he has right it is doubt variation?
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #5 - 07/04/10 at 19:22:41
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I am playing this variation at a CC game
1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. d4 Nf6 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Bg5 c5 7. d5 b5 8. cxb5 a6 9. a4 Qa5 10. Bd2
But I notice that white has 65% at least at my old (big 2004) database, maybe to play another variation is better?
« Last Edit: 07/04/10 at 20:52:32 by »  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #4 - 07/02/10 at 18:23:35
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kylemeister wrote on 07/01/10 at 20:34:11:
I would wonder just what Bologan gives after 5...0-0 6. Qd2 c5 7. d5 e6, which I think of as an old standard line considered quite okay for Black.  I certainly don't tend to associate it with White castling queenside.  So Bologan thinks 7...b5 is better?   


In this case, Bologan only analyses 7....b5. In general, it´s a repertoire book and he obviously believes b5 ist best without giving any hints why.

Only a guess: Maybe he dislikes 7....e6 for practical reasons, because he did not want to get to some major Saemisch line after 8.f3 and a major Averbakh-line after 8.Be2. Could be a move order problem, if Black´s repertoire contains other lines against both systems.
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #3 - 07/01/10 at 20:34:11
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I would wonder just what Bologan gives after 5...0-0 6. Qd2 c5 7. d5 e6, which I think of as an old standard line considered quite okay for Black.  I certainly don't tend to associate it with White castling queenside.  So Bologan thinks 7...b5 is better?   
  
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #2 - 07/01/10 at 15:20:02
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Re: 5. Bg5 in the KID?
Reply #1 - 06/30/10 at 11:46:50
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I played this variation as black some times last year and as I remember I had 2.5 /4 (or 1.5 /3), a good result as black since the loose where against a IM ( I had a 1/2 at a point )and the 1/2 against a higher rating player .
That means that you must have a good opening preparation and a precise play too!  Smiley.
I thing kasparov played  Nbd7 variations but I can not  search at Kasparov on the King's Indian  now-you may look for this book.
[Edit]
I thing Yusupov at Build up your Chess Vol 3   has that variation
[Edit2]Yusupov has Bg5 and e3 variation
  
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5. Bg5 in the KID?
06/30/10 at 10:55:15
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Searching for a new line against the KID for a 1600 - 2100 level, which ideally would be an aggressive sideline denying Black his preparation and some of his fun attacking my king, I consulted Bologan´s repertoire book for Black. Chapter 4 is about the line 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Sc3 d6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Bg5.

Bologan´s evaluation of this line sounds like an advertisement for White:
"This move looks rather simple and straightforward, but it requires from Black a good opening preparation and a precise play. The idea behind the move for White is to either provoke h6 and then to transpose into a favourable line from the Saemisch attack, or to consolidate the bishop on g5 after Qd2 and this would be in principle rather unpleasant for Black". You will soon notice in our book that Ivan Sokolov is one of its main exponents and he is famous for being a very aggressive White player".

18 pages on a rare sideline show Bologan´s interest in the line and the chapter contains so many different black moves, that you can use parts of it even for a White repertoire. Bologans seems to be interested in analysing Black´s weaker responses to point out typical mistakes and shows, that a lot of natural moves, starting with 5...Nbd7?! lead to a White advantage and even in the line 5.Bg5 h6 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 he needs a novelty and some home analysis to find equality for Black.

In the quite natural main line 5.Bg5 0-0 6.Qd2 c5 7.d5  Bologan makes 7....b5! (Bologan) his repertoire choice. I would be very surprised if many King´s Indian fans in the above mentioned ELO - range would use a Benkö-like pawn sacrifice as their weapon against a line so rarely played.
And without such aggressive counterplay, White´s chances to reach the above mentioned strategic goal, and further on after castling long a quick kingside attack, seem not bad.

What are your experiences with this line? Are there any good sources on it?
  
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