an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/02/18 at 01:59:02:


I was going to ask the same thing. Maybe Glenn misread "without" in my post?

Stigma wrote on 08/30/18 at 02:49:35:

Stigma wrote on 08/30/18 at 02:49:35:

Quote:


No, he gives "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 g6 4.Nc3 Bg7 5.e4 d6 6.h3 0-0 7.Bd3 e6", and then has chapters on 8.Nf3 and 8.Nge2.

Glenn Snow wrote on 08/08/18 at 03:18:24:


I heard that this chapter fails to mention the challenging line with Nf3 and Bd3 without h3. Is that true?

Black can consider reaching the Late/Yugoslav Benoni from a King's Indian move order - get fianchettoed and castled first and only then decide whether to play ...c5 based on what White has done so far. It could still be viable against the Classical, the Fianchetto, Nge2 lines and Nf3+h3 (though TonyRo's reservations in the other thread are noted) for instance. (The Classical KID with 6.Be2 c5 of course requires Black to be ready for a Maroczy Bind as well.)

MNb wrote on 08/07/18 at 10:45:24:

We discussed that "Late Benoni" database a bit in this thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1522883731/10, mentioning some critical setups: Both Nf3/Bd3/h3 and Nf3/Bd3 without h3. I haven't really tried to bolster Black's cause there; currently thinking about the Modern Benoni instead, at least when White is committed to an early Nf3.

Glenn Snow wrote on 08/06/18 at 02:55:28:


So is Black getting a bit short of alternatives to the 9...b5 main line with the dreary but drawable 10.Bxb5 line? I see that Petrov in his Benoni book claimed 9...Nh5 (after castling this time) was OK for Black. He also found the move order popularized by Watson with 7.Nf3 a6 8.a4 Bg4 acceptable, though there are some White move orders that sidestep that line.

Glenn Snow wrote on 08/18/10 at 16:35:15:

Interesting! Maybe I was too quick to dismiss 16...Nd7. It somehow "feels" wrong as Black is losing lots of time with Nf6-h5-f6-d7, Qh4-e7, Bg7-e5-g7, and yet he seems to be OK (certainly in all the lines you gave)! Weird . As White, I'd be tempted to head straight for the central advance with 16...Nd7 17.g3 Qe7 (17...Qd8!?) 18.Bg2 0-0 19.f4 Bg7 20.Nc3, but I'm not sure whether it makes too much difference.

By the way, what do you make of Black's other option, i.e. the 14.Ra3 Be5 15.Re1 Nf4 16.a5 Nxh3+!? piece sac?

[quote author=1F203D2C3A3C4F0 link=1277923036/3#3 date=1278098006][quote author=7C717C737A1D0 link=1277923036/1#1 date=1277935035]After 15...Nf6, 16.Ne2 could be a problem.

For example: 16...g5 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 gxf4 20.gxf4 Bxd4 21.Nxd4 Qxd1 22.Rxd1 cxd4 23.Rxd4 +/-[/quote]
I think you're right.  :(

White can play in a similar way against 16...0-0 as well, i.e. 17.g3 Qxh3 18.Bg2 Qh5 19.f4 Ng4 20.fxe5 Qh2+ 21.Kf1 Nxe5 22.Nf4 Bg4 23.Qd2! g5 (23...Nc4 24.Qc3 Nxa3 25.bxa3 looks good for White) 24.Kf2! and the threat of Rh1 sends Black packing.

I can see now that the rook on a3 performs a very useful defensive role along the 3rd rank - fortifying the sensitive h3 & g3 squares. White is preparing to push Black back with g3, Bg2, f4 without allowing dangerous sacs on h3/g3.

After 16.Ne2, maybe Black's best is the retrograde 16...Nd7, but this is a sign that it's all gone wrong for him. The problem bishop on c8 is as bad as ever.

Backing up a bit, perhaps Black should try 15...Nf4 (instead of 15...Nf6). :-/ [/quote]

I've been looking at the position after [b]16...Nd7[/b] some more and despite the undeveloped Bishop, Rybka 3 seems to think Black's doing OK.  For example:

[b]17.g3[/b] (17.Rb3 b5!? 18.axb5 axb5 19.Rxb5 0-0) [b]17...Qe7 18.Qc2 Bg7 19.a5 0-0 20.Bg2 Rb8 21.Bd2[/b] (21.g4 b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 Re8 24.Ng3?! Qh4 25.Bd2 [if the Knight moves then Black has ...h5) 25...Bd4 26.Bc3 Rb4) [b]21...b5 22.axb6 Rxb6 23.b3 h5! 24.Nc1[/b] (Also looked at 24.Bc3 and 24.f4) [b]24...h4 25.g4 Bd4.[/b]  That's probably more than enough moves to start the refutation process.  Here Rybka and Firebird think Black's doing alright while Stockfish thinks White is doing rather well.  Certainly Black's position is more of a counterattacking nature, and while I'd rather have White if I had to try and win with Black this variation has more life than other anti-MML variations.