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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies (Read 32208 times)
MNb
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #24 - 02/22/11 at 14:47:02
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As 5.e3 in the Albin is not that bad (unlike 4.e3?) I am not sure if White has more than sufficient compensation with the extra move Bf4.
5...a6 6.Qe2 and I am tempted to play g6 now. After 7.0-0-0 Bg7 the Queen should rather be on d2. A sample line is 8.Nxe4 Nxe4 9.Qxe4 0-0 10.Qe3 Qa5 11.Kb1 b5 12.Qxe7 Bxb2 13.Qxc2 Bg4. No way I claim that this is best play for both sides though; it's just an illustration of Black's chances.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #23 - 02/22/11 at 12:01:39
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MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 10:53:37:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:54:17:
I notice Davies actually gives this:

"After 2...c5 we get a Chigorin Defence with colours reversed and an extra tempo for White. Probably he can best take advantage of this with 3 e4"

and in a bracket:

"3...dxe4 4 d5 Nf6 5 f3 exf3 6 Nxf3 puts Black in a quite dangerous line of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit as the inclusion of the moves ...c5 and d5 give White a lot of central space"

I am not convinced. 6...a6 and 7...e6 looks pretty good.


6...a6 7 a4 e6 8 Bc4 may be okay for White, though there's certainly no advantage.

So yes, I'd prefer 5 Bf4.

MNb wrote on 02/21/11 at 10:53:37:
Imo White should prefer your 5.Bf4 indeed (better than Sawyer's 5.Be3 above) as Qb6 6.Qd2 Qxb2 7.Rb1 Qa3 fails to 8.Nb5 Qxa2 9.Nc7+ Kd8 10.Rd1.
If 5.Bf4 g6?! 6.Qd2 Bg7 7.0-0 White plays an Albin's with colours reversed and an extra tempo indeed. The Bishop is placed a bit unusual on f4 (in the Albin's it's e6 or g4) but after the thematical Bh6 that doesn't matter anymore.
More solid is 5.Bf4 e6 6.Bb5+ Bd7 or even 5...a6.


Then 5...e6 6 Bb5+ Bd7 7 dxe6 gives White good compensation (as after 5 e3?! in the Albin). And on 5...a6 Fritz suggests 6 Qe2!? intending 0-0-0 which looks quite interesting.
  
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GMEricPrie
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #22 - 02/22/11 at 11:03:15
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Some hints about this especially important matter for the d-pawn, well, 'specials' : http://www.newinchess.com/Archives/PDFs/YB78_QP0901.pdf
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #21 - 02/21/11 at 21:26:26
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Just what I thought when I first saw the variation but it's funny how difficult it is to make use of the extra tempo.


IMO in many cases using reversed  openings that extra tempo just gets in the way.
  
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MNb
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #20 - 02/21/11 at 10:53:37
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/21/11 at 09:54:17:
I notice Davies actually gives this:

"After 2...c5 we get a Chigorin Defence with colours reversed and an extra tempo for White. Probably he can best take advantage of this with 3 e4"

and in a bracket:

"3...dxe4 4 d5 Nf6 5 f3 exf3 6 Nxf3 puts Black in a quite dangerous line of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit as the inclusion of the moves ...c5 and d5 give White a lot of central space"

I am not convinced. 6...a6 and 7...e6 looks pretty good.
Imo White should prefer your 5.Bf4 indeed (better than Sawyer's 5.Be3 above) as Qb6 6.Qd2 Qxb2 7.Rb1 Qa3 fails to 8.Nb5 Qxa2 9.Nc7+ Kd8 10.Rd1.
If 5.Bf4 g6?! 6.Qd2 Bg7 7.0-0 White plays an Albin's with colours reversed and an extra tempo indeed. The Bishop is placed a bit unusual on f4 (in the Albin's it's e6 or g4) but after the thematical Bh6 that doesn't matter anymore.
More solid is 5.Bf4 e6 6.Bb5+ Bd7 or even 5...a6.
« Last Edit: 02/21/11 at 12:02:58 by MNb »  
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Jonathan Tait
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #19 - 02/21/11 at 09:54:17
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AlanG wrote on 02/20/11 at 20:31:25:
Conzipe wrote on 02/20/11 at 19:59:57:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/20/11 at 13:49:04:
Is there anything wrong with 3 e4 - ?

What is not wrong with it?
Black simply plays 3...dxe4 when there is an annoying threat to the d4 pawn and white best might be to play for a dubious gambit with d4-d5 and later f2-f3. In the 3...c5 line white can always play dxc5 when the queen is defended by the rook (1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 c5 4. Bxf6 gxf6 5. e4 dxe4 6. dxc5) however that is not possible in this variation.

Is the gambit so dubious? It's an Albin Counter-Gambit with an extra tempo.


quite so Smiley

I notice Davies actually gives this:

"After 2...c5 we get a Chigorin Defence with colours reversed and an extra tempo for White. Probably he can best take advantage of this with 3 e4"

and in a bracket:

"3...dxe4 4 d5 Nf6 5 f3 exf3 6 Nxf3 puts Black in a quite dangerous line of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit as the inclusion of the moves ...c5 and d5 give White a lot of central space"

which is indeed a line of the BDG: the Kaulich Defence (5...c5) — or possibly a Bogoljubow (5...g6) after 6...g6 7 Bf4 Bg7 8 Qd2 0-0 9 0-0-0.

And 5 f3 is not obligatory either. I'd probably prefer 5 Bf4, holding back f2-f3 for the time being (Black only sometimes plays ...f7-f6 in the Albin).
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #18 - 02/21/11 at 09:37:22
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Markovich wrote on 02/20/11 at 23:09:44:
Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/20/11 at 19:21:43:
As for 3...c5, personally I quite like White's game after 4 Bxf6 gxf6 5 e3 and 6 Qh5.


Really?  In my data base, White scores about 40% in roughly 50 games after 5.e3 Nc6 6.Qh5 e6 (or reversing Black's two moves here).  I notice that one of Black's points is 7.Nge2 b5! But we should open a separate thread if we go much further with this, since it's offtopic here.


So let's make it on topic:

On this variation Davies gives:
1) 5...Nc6 6 Qh5 "!" "with awkward pressure on Black’s game" — and stops there.
2) 5...cxd4 6 exd4 Nc6 "?!" 7 Qh5 e6 8 0-0-0 Bb4 9 Nge2 (or 9 Nce2 "!") 9...Bd7 10 g4!? (as in the game Mihajlovskij-Gershon).

Personally I don't like 8 0-0-0 in the second line. Instead, in his new book (A Ferocious Opening Repertoire) Cyrus Lakdawala gives 8 Nf3! intending 9 Bd3 and 10 0-0 (with the games Hector-Evdokimov and Bosch-Ftacnik).

However, in the first line CL has (via 5...Nc6 6 Qh5 e6) 7 0-0-0 "!?" (with 7...Qa5 8 Nge2), without mentioning that 7...cxd4 8 exd4 just transposes to the inferior 8 0-0-0 above. Clearly White should play 7 Nf3 here too (as indeed Hector has done).
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #17 - 02/20/11 at 23:09:44
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/20/11 at 19:21:43:
Conzipe's move was 2...c5.



Silly me.  That's a move I would never consider.  That really doesn't look like chess to me.

Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/20/11 at 19:21:43:
As for 3...c5, personally I quite like White's game after 4 Bxf6 gxf6 5 e3 and 6 Qh5.


Really?  In my data base, White scores about 40% in roughly 50 games after 5.e3 Nc6 6.Qh5 e6 (or reversing Black's two moves here).  I notice that one of Black's points is 7.Nge2 b5! But we should open a separate thread if we go much further with this, since it's offtopic here.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #16 - 02/20/11 at 21:59:16
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Compare with this line from the Morris Gambit:

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 dxe4 4.d5 Nf6 5.Nc3.

e.g McShane,L - Illescas Cordoba,M Gothenburg 2005.
  
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MNb
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #15 - 02/20/11 at 21:15:47
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Sawyer recommends 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 Nf6 5.Be3 but you must stomach Qb6 6.Qd2 Qxb2 7.Rb1 Qa3.
Gedult against a whole string of amateurs won with 4.Bf4 Nf6 (cxd4 5.Nb5 Na6 6.Nxd4) 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #14 - 02/20/11 at 20:31:25
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Is the gambit so dubious? It's an Albin Counter-Gambit with an extra tempo.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #13 - 02/20/11 at 19:59:57
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/20/11 at 13:49:04:
Is there anything wrong with 3 e4 - ?

What is not wrong with it?
Black simply plays 3...dxe4 when there is an annoying threat to the d4 pawn and white best might be to play for a dubious gambit with d4-d5 and later f2-f3. In the 3...c5 line white can always play dxc5 when the queen is defended by the rook (1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 c5 4. Bxf6 gxf6 5. e4 dxe4 6. dxc5) however that is not possible in this variation.
  
Don't listen to what I just said, I'm just a patzer pretending to know something.
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #12 - 02/20/11 at 19:21:43
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Markovich wrote on 02/20/11 at 15:53:33:
I haven't seen the book, but about 3...c5!, I agree with Conzipe.


Conzipe's move was 2...c5.

As for 3...c5, personally I quite like White's game after 4 Bxf6 gxf6 5 e3 and 6 Qh5.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #11 - 02/20/11 at 15:53:33
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I haven't seen the book, but about 3...c5!, I agree with Conzipe.
  
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Re: Questions about "The Veresov" by Nigel Davies
Reply #10 - 02/20/11 at 13:49:04
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Is there anything wrong with 3 e4 - ?
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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